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Topic: First persistant world to ban homosexuality? (Read 516 times) |
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coffeeadikt
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Please don't post any more messages about this on their boards.
You have to understand the culture of paranoia and ignorance the Head DM there has built for the place. It's a scary microcosm of otherwise good people acting irrationally.
Your messages on their board will be deleted and it will only serve to fuel the ego trip the Head DM is on. I know it's not easy but please refrain from posting there.
Like J'Dai said, we should keep this positive:
If cybersex is a problem on your servers then I truly hope you find an inoffensive and creative solution to it.
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Dane Bramage
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If cybersex is the issue, then that is what should be banned. Intolerance in any form is inexcusable, especially in a place such a a PW that is so totally social. They might argue the opposite, but the only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance... (hrm... is that ironic or is it just me)
But to the rest of your post, I'd have to agree again. Getting into a flame war about it does nothing either. As you say, it will only support the opinions of the DMs.
My adive is to just leave and find someplace else to game. I read around the forums, and it does seem that the head guy has a bit of a power trip going on. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. I too have left a PW because the DM was so totally unreasonable, that is ceased to be fun to play on his server anymore. The only way to combat that is to not participate. If you doubt my words, then go and find the Hidden Tradition server in PW Story. 9 times out of 10 it will be empty. If enough people get fed up, then his world will be empty... That, my friend, is the ultimate revenge.
I am curious to know what precipitated that post, and I wonder what the atmosphere is like on the server now as compared to before.
It is unfortunate that it happened, and I hope you find a new home.
DB.
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J'Dai Voisin
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on Jun 9, 2005, 6:15 PM, Dane Bramage wrote:| If cybersex is the issue, then that is what should be banned. |
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Exactly - the issue is not the ROLE, but the PLAYER. If the players are acting inappropriately or offensively, THAT is where the change needs to happen.
Broad-brush policies make me so angry...
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Rofelli
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Yeah, if it was the players, 99% of all in-game romances WOULD be homosexual. As they said at the WoW boards, "Male until proven female." 
Jokes aside, the server is owned by somebody somewhere. It's his server, and he has the right to set rules governing the behavior of its users. If you break his rules, he has every right to disallow to you the use of his property. Although I think the ban is ridiculous myself, I think he has every right to make that rule and enforce it by whatever legal means are at his disposal.
With that said, the way I see it, if you don't like how a server is run, then don't play on that server.
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| « Last Edit: on: Jun 9, 2005, 6:53PM » |
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Erik_the_Celt
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Is this a concern because Mirellest is listed as a PW on NWC?
J'Dai is there any consensus on rules for listing a PW on NWC? Indirectly, it appears that we are promoting this site.
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| « Last Edit: on: Jun 9, 2005, 6:54PM » |
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Dane Bramage
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on Jun 9, 2005, 7:21 PM, coffeeadikt wrote:| I hate to admit it, but he does have precedent for this. |
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I knida figured he did. Not trying to defend his post, but I find that people rarely post such strong feelings without provocation. Perhaps the "creative" negitive reinforcement was not such a good idea. Perhaps it only provides fuel to thier alternative RP practices.
on Jun 9, 2005, 7:26 PM, J'Dai Voisin wrote:| Dane Bramage may be able to speak to that directly, but it's been a pain even in our little world. |
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Yes... that I can. It seems that regarless of how you describe your server/mod or how many times you bluntly tell people that certain kinds of behavior isn't appropriate they just don't pay attention if the server is posted to the Social tab on Gamespy. One example of this is when I specifically told a person the cybering isn't acceptable on our mod, she/he replied... "but I can do tricks... is there someplace I can take a bath?"
Now that we moved our mod to the "team" tab, we have seen very little of this behavior. But there is also a question of reciprocating behaviors. If the cyberers (is that even a word ) are ignored, then they will eventually go away.
It seems to me the issue should not be that there are only certain kinds of cybersex behaviors that are okay, but it is either all or none. If that is not the kind of server he wants to run, then he needs to start banning people. Lay down the hammer of the law and get people's attention. If they really enjoy the place, then they will behave accordinly.
It has seemed to work for us, but we have a very small community of regulars on the server. It is every easy to smite those that get out of control.
DB.
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coffeeadikt
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on Jun 9, 2005, 7:47 PM, Dane Bramage wrote:| I knida figured he did. Not trying to defend his post, but I find that people rarely post such strong feelings without provocation. |
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You know, it's hard to say. I've been dealing with Gevaudan for the past 2 and a half years and the tone of his posts still confuses me somewhat. He insists that he is emotionally neutral while writing and that he feels his posts are calm and rational.
However, I find he typically writes with a great deal of hostility, which is especially difficult when his stance is clearly wrong. Some examples are a time when he was stating that Ontario, Canada is in GMT -5 (I can understand confusion over Daylight Savings Time, but he went so far as to call official time zone websites "wrong and inaccurate" and threatening banning over pointing out that he lived in GMT - 4) and an issue regarding firewalls which I was recently banned for.
Note my current avatar there came after that fact and isn't a shining moment of maturity on my part, but after 2 1/2 years it sure felt good.
Additionally, these guys kind of painted themselves into a corner on this server. Because of the DM events made to disrupt cyber, they created "private" zones on this server, on which DMs are not allowed to create events.
They've decided to create an issue out of homosexuality rather than focusing on the root issue of cybersex.
I suppose that's what happens when you design reactively rather than proactively.
| Perhaps the "creative" negitive reinforcement was not such a good idea. Perhaps it only provides fuel to thier alternative RP practices. |
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On the contrary, it seemed to work well with that previous server. The players got XP and DM attention, albeit at the cost of an orgasm. And that mode of enforcement made me feel like much less of a jerk than if I were to immediately break out the ban hammer.
Luckily we never had to ban anyone, the cybering almost immediately fell to much more acceptable levels.
I submit this as a suggestion for dealing with the problem. I understand that your situation was a little different from our own with your server though.
| If the cyberers (is that even a word) are ignored, then they will eventually go away. |
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Has this worked for you in the past? In our case ignoring the issue had made it into a problem. Every case is different though.
| It seems to me the issue should not be that there are only certain kinds of cybersex behaviors that are okay, but it is either all or none. |
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That would be sensible policy, yes. I would hope that any server I'm involved with running would be fair like that.
At any rate, I agree that Mirellest is positively free to do what they wish, even if I feel they're a case study of a mismanaged server, and I appreciate your collective decision to leave them alone.
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| « Last Edit: on: Jun 9, 2005, 8:21PM » |
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zimith
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Any server can get the issue of excessive cybering or adult content. Usually this is the result of something in the nature of the community, the ruleset or the mod. It also has a close connection to many very young boys among the community. I can very much agree this can be a problem, i have experienced it myself. But out of respect for the gay part of the nwn community and frankly, common sense, the recipe for dealing with this is not an expressed ban on homosexual characters. The Mirellest staff should have recognized that this will lead to offended people and bad blood.
If i as a homosexual visited the Mirellest site and saw this rule, i would be very much pissed, regardless if i wanted play there or not. There are a ton of better solutions to this issue than this offensive rule.
And as for server owners rights and obligations; as long as it is a server open to the public it is also subject to certain considerations. Let me take a far fetched example. If i made a mod where the pcs played SS officers and the sole goal was to farm jewish npc infants, it would be my sick right to do so. But if i made the mod a persistant world and opened to the public, i would (hopefully) be a in a heap of shit. While extreme, the example shows a public, well advertised pw, is subject to certain standards. I also think (and hope) NWC would not agree to advertise my example mod either, regardless of written rules.
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| « Last Edit: on: Jun 9, 2005, 8:49PM » |
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Rofelli
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zimith, I'd be happy to discuss owner's rights with you off the boards, but for now I'll say: Nope; he can create whatever world with whatever rules he wants; all that a "public" server means is that anybody who wants to play there may do so. If you want to argue on that, send me a PM. The forums aren't an appropriate place for what is, essentially, a political discussion.
With that out of the way, I am torn on the position of whether or not NWC should support the PW. Unless we have clear declaration of points concerning what behavior we will, and will not, accept when we show any sort of promotion or support for anything at all, then it would be unwise to start deciding what we'll support based on how some players feel about something.
Whether or not anybody believes that Mirellest is committing a wrong act is an individual decision, not something that the community has consensus on. And, if we demanded consensus on what to advertise (oh, the administrative headache! The last thing the website needs is a beauracracy!), we would then be sending a signal to future members: we all think this way. The fact is, though I have no personal problem with homosexuality (I think it should just as much an issue as eye color), I also think it's wrong to turn away anybody who comes here who does have a problem with homosexuality. It is not the job of a website devoted to the multiplayer aspect of a game to set up criteria of agreement in order to play with others.
On the other hand, if a server would make people feel uncomfortable for any reason, perhaps NWC should not support it because discomfort ruins gameplay. Or, perhaps, a warning should be given with the support. Afterall, some people may WANT to play in a game with less homosexuality.
Which brings up the question of why NWC has chosen to display the PWs it displays, unless there is, in fact, an existing criteria that I have never before seen or heard about (primarily for lack of trying on my part).
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| « Last Edit: on: Jun 9, 2005, 10:10PM » |
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Dane Bramage
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I honestly don't think we are supporting it. I haven't looked that closely, but I haven't even seen an event scheduled for it yet. So, I think the question of NWC's support of the site is moot. We do not endorse it's views, but at the same time, it is not our position to say what is right or wrong. For how it stands now, they have not posted anything offensive ON this site (again, unless I missed it). Now... if he started to post anti-gay sentiments on the forum or his game page, then I think we could/should say/do something, but until that happens, I don't see any reason to attempt to exclude them or thier PW.
DB.
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ThCromwell
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Are we role-players or political advocates. I have intentionally kept my opinions and views to myself. I would never bring such views into this setting for this exact reason. People feel strongly about this issue (especially here in the US), and it has no place in a gaming setting. If some close-minded, bigoted jerk wants to discriminate, then I say let him have his own little world. The fact that we even acknowledge it only validates it. This subject should not be discussed here further.
--ThCromwell--
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