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Topic: No DM Client At Release (Read 760 times) |
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Etarnon
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"It was impossible to get it finished in time."
If it is released without a DM client, pardon me, but IT's NOT A COMPLETE GAME.
It is calling itself NWN2. Really, without a DM client, it is NWN Campaign 2, with better graphics.
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Kalia D'Malen
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on May 12, 2006, 7:56 PM, Etarnon wrote:"It was impossible to get it finished in time."
If it is released without a DM client, pardon me, but IT's NOT A COMPLETE GAME.
It is calling itself NWN2. Really, without a DM client, it is NWN Campaign 2, with better graphics. |
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I disagree completely. If you look at Anthony Davis's comments on the official forums, they look at the OC, the toolset and the DM client as individual components that are related to one another. I would MUCH rather that they perfect the toolset which is possibly MORE important at initial release than is the DM client. Then bring out the DM client when it is ready, complete and enhanced according to OUR specifications than to have them slap in some half-baked, bug-filled client.
A. Davis is also on record as saying it WILL be included, that it IS an integral part of the NWN 2 experience and that the community will be listened to to help make it even better and more functional than its predecessor.
Build your mods. Build your worlds. Test your scripts. By the time you actually get that far, the client will be released. I have every confidence that it will blow us away when it is.
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Tarridus
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I think much of the furor over all this stems from the fact that this is happening now. When it could have been brought up earlier in the development cycle. I have no problems waiting for an enhanced DM client but could the development team have brought up more information earlier?
Could they have not announced this Pre-E3 and asked the community for their input then?
Instead, we must wait for the official announcement a few weeks after E3 as plans seem to have not be finalized even. For me, it was the lack of information given prior and the secrecy in keeping the information from the community that bothers me.
But don't take this as a flame or rant or anything. It is just the reason why I was initially upset.
*hugs NWN1 tighter - Looks like we're gonna be close for a little while longer*
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Poetic Colossus
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on May 12, 2006, 8:47 PM, Kalia D'Malen wrote:on May 12, 2006, 7:56 PM, Etarnon wrote:"It was impossible to get it finished in time."
If it is released without a DM client, pardon me, but IT's NOT A COMPLETE GAME.
It is calling itself NWN2. Really, without a DM client, it is NWN Campaign 2, with better graphics. |
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I disagree completely. If you look at Anthony Davis's comments on the official forums, they look at the OC, the toolset and the DM client as individual components that are related to one another. I would MUCH rather that they perfect the toolset which is possibly MORE important at initial release than is the DM client. Then bring out the DM client when it is ready, complete and enhanced according to OUR specifications than to have them slap in some half-baked, bug-filled client.
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Yup.
I chatted with the A-man yesterday at E3 - after softly weeping upon his shoulder in appreciation of the NWN 2 demo he was showing.
You also now get the added bonus of having a development team's full attention ( I think the multiple Dev/CEO/Lead Designer Posts will ascertain to this statement) to the DM Client's production, after the toolset and SP are finished.
It's just a bummer to see such inflammatory remarks by people who have never worked in the industry or never will. You can't really begin to understand the financial and personal sacrifices these guys/gals make, day in and day out, until you walk a mile in their shoes. People with families, mortages, etc etc - not that's any different from the rest of us, but when do we have hundreds of people calling for us to be drawn and quartered at high noon?!
Er unless, you're a Kobe Bryant.(Tasteless, I know!)
Anyways, it's cool to see that most of us are recovering from the initial uproar (which did serve a purpose) and moving ahead - with all of the bonus goodies in the new toolset, it will take us a substantial amount of building time to get anything decent up and running anyways.
Ok - so one thing I have to share from yesterday.
Casting "enlarge" upon your familiar is the bomb trick - suddenly your furry little pig is transformed into a heathen beast of the nine pits! Awesome!
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Von Stalhein
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Granted that Devs are real people, with real lives that they have to attend to - but you could argue that politicians are real people too. Doesn't stop the press and public tearing -them- apart does it?
Personally, I do think it was the way the news "slipped" out that annoyed a lot of people - and Obsidian's track record hardly served as inspiration.
Personally, whether I buy NWN2 will depend only on whether I have enough money for my new PC by the time it's released, not on what parts are released in the box and which parts are released later.
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Festivus
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on May 12, 2006, 3:25 AM, Kalia D'Malen wrote:A bit of clarification from Patrick Mills:
After reading (ok, glancing) over a lot of the stuff here, I'd like to point out a few things.
Firstly, no one needs a DM client to test things. We use the exact same tools that we are putting in the box. We do not use a DM client to test things.
Simply keeping the NWN1 DM client intact and "porting" it is just unreasonable and doesn't really make sense. NWN2 is not the same game as NWN1. Even if we change no functionality it's not like we can just merge the two code-bases, hit compile, and expect magic to happen.
None of us like that the DM client won't be available. I can't comment on time-frame because I don't know anything about it.
The good news is, since none of the developers here (or the testers or anyone else) have been using a DM client to test things, many of the same features of a DM client are available through script via the console.
For those who like to accuse Obsidian or Atari of lying. I've never seen anyone here lie to the community. Things get said that wind up not to be correct or that later change (who knows, maybe this post contains something that will one day be retracted?) Everyone here speaks to the best of their knowledge. At one time horses were a sure thing, we'd never cut those! But development is a rocky road and things change, and at some point someone has to look at what we have and say "No, we're not going to have horses, this just doesn't work."
So, when you hear devs speak, understand that they are talking about what they want, what they are planning on, how things stand at that moment when they say it. |
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[edit]Ooops, better put on my glasses
So perhaps a lot of the DM functionality could be setup via a wand a la DMFI?
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| « Last Edit: on: May 12, 2006, 10:32PM » |
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LIONofHUME
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on May 12, 2006, 10:02 PM, Von Stalhein wrote:| - and Obsidian's track record hardly served as inspiration. |
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What track record?...lol
I for one have complete faith in this group. NWN2 being their second title, and coming off a lack luster showing with KotOR2, they need a good showing with NWN2. Their not new to the business, so they know the possible ramifications of back to back mediocre titles.
PC: The only thing I could think of, to out do, the enlarge spell would be an inclusion of the polymorph spell. Oh how sweet that would be. (Yes I know it's over powered...but can't a guy fantasize?)
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Carlo One
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I'll defer to Demetrious (DMFI Design Team lead) on the possibilities of jury-rigging DM functionality. Personally, I don't plan on buying NWN2 until a DM client is supported, however, it's my primary use for the game.
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Lazybones
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on May 12, 2006, 11:00 PM, Carlo One wrote:| I'll defer to Demetrious (DMFI Design Team lead) on the possibilities of jury-rigging DM functionality. Personally, I don't plan on buying NWN2 until a DM client is supported, however, it's my primary use for the game. |
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This is my feeling as well. I'll give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt. I truly do hope that they are able to turn out a great DMC within a few months of release.
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Arawen
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Steel Wind's view the DM Client issue and its relation to NWN2 publisher Atari's perilous financial situation, as posted on the DLA Web Page, May 11:
*NWN2 will ship Without DM Client
As was disclosed earlier today on the NWN2 forums, NWN2 will not ship with a DM client.
The plan, according to Obsidian, is to offer this central feature of the entire Neverwinter concept at some vague and uncertain date by way of downloadable patch.
I do not doubt the bona fide intentions of Obsidian E to provide this patch. The devs at Obs are doing their best under difficult circumstances. I have no quarrel with the good faith of Feargus & Co..
That said, I do very much doubt Atari Corp.’s ability to honour their financial obligations and to make good on such promises. This publisher and its parent are in a precarious financial position.
As you will all discover in the next few weeks, this is not the only significant disappointment Atari Corp. is about to unleash upon an unsuspecting NWN community, either.
My concern over the ultimate readiness of NWN2 is now considerable. The fact that this game will ship without one of its core design features shows you how desperate Atari is. If they would ship NWN2 without a DM client – there is every reason to believe they will knowingly ship NWN2 with a plethora of bugs and broken features too.
This has every indication of a rushed launch that is wholly premised on quarterly financials and meeting the publisher’s considerable cashflow obligations. In short, this is the very sort of stench that was the harbinger of Troika’s Temple of Elemental Evil. It does not bode well.
I would caution fans to keep their eyes peeled and wide open. If there was ever a time to “temper expectations” – this would be it. |
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From: http://www.dladventures.com/
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| « Last Edit: on: May 13, 2006, 12:44AM » |
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Kalia D'Malen
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While I'm sure Steelwind speaks from his ostensible authority as someone who has 'been in the know' in the past, I trust PC's observations as a bona fide and current Obsidian insider. If he has the confidence that OE is trying to put out the best possible product and further intends to support that product in the future with add-ons (as mentioned by Urquhart in today's Gamespot video) and the DM client, then I am content to, if nothing else, wait and see. I don't think that it helps the game's development, the developers OR the publishers for the "doom and gloom" crowd to come to the forefront and beat the drums of war. Let's hope that Steelwind's dire predictions are borne more of nervousness than actual fact.
Additionally, a LOT more information has come out today, a full 24 hysterical hours after the inadvertent 'announcement' of the lack of a DM client. Not only has the inclusion of the DM client been confirmed by no less a person than Obsidian's CEO, it has been confirmed more than once in various and sundry places.
My lead Warcry editor finished his interview with the developers yesterday and he is very confident in OE's ability to fulfill their promises.
I can live with that.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 13, 2006, 1:08AM » |
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Tarridus
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It seems we'll just have to wait and see indeed because like LB stated, Obsidian has no track record yet with the community except what we know so far.
For a company that lets go of their lead designer, doesn't bother to tell the community (and still hasn't told us why) mere months before the release, and 'planned' on keeping the DM client exclusion from the community doesn't look like a good start on building faith.
After the Oblivion debacle and one too many game releases claiming much and falling short. It is only natural to be skeptical.
The saddest thing for me is that only NOW are we talking about the DM client at all after how many months of development? Like PC said, we've got a whole development thinking about the DM client...After the SP campaign and toolset are done.
My two cents.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 13, 2006, 1:43AM » |
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Starbuck79
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| For a company that lets go of their lead designer, doesn't bother to tell the community (and still hasn't told us why) mere months before the release, and 'planned' on keeping the DM client exclusion from the community doesn't look like a good start on building faith. |
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He was hired by Bioware, If I am not mistaken. Your talkng about Ferret right?
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deathchild
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I am waiting a bit for the majority of the bugs to get worked out anyway, and for Windows Vista - since we seem to have no Linux server.
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Bigbluepaw
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Well, I understand that you need to have a certain level of quality for components of a game. It makes sense to me that you should hold back and perhaps later release a component that doesn't measure up.
I guess the thing that irks me a touch is two things.
1.) With the post from the devs requesting suggestions on improvements to the DMC, it sounds as if it's features are far from 'frozen'. This leads me to believe they have only done minimal work to no work exclusively for it.
2.) The uncontrolled manner in which this news got out and the way in which they have had to react to it tells me that they simply haven't even been seriously thinking about the DMC. There has obviously been no plan regarding getting information on what the DMC will look like for NWN2.
All in all, my point is this... the DMC very much looks like a secondary effort (maybe tertiary) compared the other components of the game. With the DMC being the core of most campaigns here, this seems to be a proof point of their disregard for this type of community.
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Virthe
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From the previous discussions on the nwn2 forums I think the ambition level with the DM client has been something similar to what was shipped with nwn1 for a long time.
There has always been a temper expectations message and it is not our focus this time around, and do not expect grand improvements.
It's actually nice to see the OE people now mentioning the possibility of actually enhancing the DM client quite a lot.
IMO, the DM client is something that you would plan to do late in the cycle. If all the interfaces exist and are stable when you start doing the development effort for it, it simply will take a lot less time to do it.
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