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Topic: No DM Client At Release (Read 760 times) |
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Kalia D'Malen
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The prevailing opinion on the forums is that the DM client was last on the list. The developers have very clearly articulated their desire to make a great OC, to release an enhanced toolset, to improve the graphics and to add features. In all the interviews that have come out in the past several months, the DM client has not been mentioned and, indeed, the 'temper expectations' comments have been made more than once.
I can tell you that my NWN 2 Warcry site submitted an interview with Shane DeFreest that -only- focused on the DM client and it was rejected after sitting on Shane's desk for over three weeks. We were asked to submit new questions as the devs "are not ready to discuss the DM client".
Even so, I was not and am STILL not bothered by the fact that the DM client is not going to be released initially. Once the devs have accomplished their primary goals (see the first paragraph), they will turn their attention to the DM client. I have no doubts that they will release something very worth the wait.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 13, 2006, 2:33PM » |
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Forrestwolf
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Well, I've got a mix of emotions going on inside me about the whole mess - I'll start with the negatives and end in a positive manner, 'kay?
1) I initially felt pretty betrayed, because I think we as a community were left with the impression that DM'd NWN was an important part of NWN2. We've had people with an inside track on the game saying it's going to be great for running players through a module. Not sure how we can do that exactly without a Client. I was always skeptical about the release date at least of NWN2, and I've seen various parts of the community slow way down because they DO think it'll come out soon (I'm thinking of D20 Modern among others). I'm pretty annoyed that we've been making a lot of changes in the way we as a community play NWN1 in preparation for an NWN2 that seems to consider us an afterthought.
2) I'm now convinced I don't need to worry about ending my NWN1 DMing anytime soon. Guess that means I can slow down and enjoy my current campaign!
3) However, inside people like Poetic are telling us it's going to be okay - and I trust such people - so that makes me feel somewhat better about NWN2. Also, the new official announcements sure claim they consider DM Client to be very important, if not something for doing at the start.
WHEW! Here's the positive:
I am quite sure that the scripters in the community can find a way to approximate an NWN1-style DM Client using a Player-DM until the patch with the real Client comes out - NPC possession is a huge problem, but I think the Voice routines of the DMFI could go a long way towards fixing that, if they were revamped. Creation of new creatures, placeables, etc., as well as jumping things from other areas can all be accomplished by scripting. What's a DM but a PC with those abilities, plus super-speed, cutscene invis., and immortality? I know, it's a cludge, but I'm sure our community will rise to the challenge of filling the gap until the Client really comes out.
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Lazybones
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on May 13, 2006, 2:38 AM, Starbuck79 wrote:| For a company that lets go of their lead designer, doesn't bother to tell the community (and still hasn't told us why) mere months before the release, and 'planned' on keeping the DM client exclusion from the community doesn't look like a good start on building faith. |
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He was hired by Bioware, If I am not mistaken. Your talkng about Ferret right? |
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Ferret was the Lead Designer for NWN2, and worked for Obsidian, not Bioware (Black Isle before that).
http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=836
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Slare
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Frankly, even the Feargus's reassurances make me uneasy at this time.
Does anyone seriously expect him to say "yeah, we'll make a DM client after we are done patching the single player game bugs but only if Atari is still around and willing to pay us to develop it", even if that were true?
At this point I think they'd say anything to make sure the release goes well, because their continued existance (and Atari's as well) is on the line. But after that, all bets are off. You don't make money off patches and support and new features. Even if Obsidian truly wants to support the game after release, I am 99% sure Atari isn't going to want to pay for them to do so.
With Atari in such bad shape and likely unwilling to pay a dime more than they are contractually obligated to, Obsidian is going to have to find another project and get it going ASAP, leaving continued support of NWN2 a distant second priority.
Its all business. Good intentions don't really mean much when the bills need to be paid. That's why I am worried.
Like a few other people here, I don't care about the SP. The toolset is only used to support my DMing. I have no intention of making unDM'd mods or running unDM'd games. This game is literally worthless to me without the DM client.
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Dellaster
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The initial shock has worn off and I'm feeling more optimistic in large part because of the reassurances posted by others in this topic. Thank you. I am, however, still worried. Obsidian now has a track record and it's not good.
KotOR II's ... erm, I guess "incompleteness" would be a nice way of putting it ... was somewhat forgivable. The company may have had some old hands from Black Isle, etc., but it's the team that makes games and that team was brand new.
According to Obsidian itself in the "What went wrong?" section of their postmortem (http://tinyurl.com/fycr3), it wasn't Lucas Arts' fault. Obsidian (Kevin Saunders) said of the cause: "Simply put, we were too ambitious in terms of total content, and this was realized much too late."
And now JE Sawyer says it's not Atari's fault, rather that: "We (Obsidian) defined the overall scope of the game and the fact that the DM client got pushed out is our responsibility."
I don't doubt the sincerity of those at Obsidian. I believe they desire and are determined to get the DM client out. But they wanted to fix the KotOR II problems in a subsequent patch too. Lucas Arts told them "no" (for whatever reason) and it didn't happen.
So what I want to see is a statement from Obsidian that Atari has authorized a post-release patch with the DM client. With no caveat that NWN2 must sell well in order for that to happen. Otherwise, no matter the good intentions of Obsidian, I'll still be in doubt. I need the magic words: "Atari has authorized ...".
Crossing my fingers.
Edit for typo (I knew I'd type "Oblivion" instead of "Obsidian" somewhere, yet still missed it.)
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| « Last Edit: on: May 13, 2006, 4:31PM » |
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Carlo One
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on May 13, 2006, 3:15 PM, Lazybones wrote:on May 13, 2006, 2:38 AM, Starbuck79 wrote:| For a company that lets go of their lead designer, doesn't bother to tell the community (and still hasn't told us why) mere months before the release, and 'planned' on keeping the DM client exclusion from the community doesn't look like a good start on building faith. |
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He was hired by Bioware, If I am not mistaken. Your talkng about Ferret right? |
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Ferret was the Lead Designer for NWN2, and worked for Obsidian, not Bioware (Black Isle before that).
http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=836 |
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Ferret moved from Obsidian to Bioware when he left the NWN2 project, FYI.
There's a parallel discussion going on at the DMFI now, both in the general discussion and Design Team forums, about the DM client issue. As I stated earlier, I don't plan on buying NWN2 until the DM client functionality is restored, regardless of the possibility of a scripting kludge. It'd be much too far of a step backward for me personally, I'd rather have the power of the DM client and the official + community content of NWN to run my campaign, compared with the more limited content of NWN2 and a kludge (at best) interface.
I also would like to respectfully point out that the more the community talks about building a kludged replacement for the DM client, the less incentive Obsidian may have to produce a real one.
Link to DMFI general discussion topic: http://nwn.bioware.com/guilds_registry/viewtopic.html?forum=20&topic=200448&gid=20
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Forrestwolf
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Lest I end up on the other side of some sort of debate, I'd like to state right up front I completely agree with Carlo One's concern about any DMFI fix - I DON'T want Obsidian to think they can get out of making a DM Client.
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Dungeon_Llama
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While I'd love to believe with Kalia, that Obs word is good enough and I'm doing that for the most part. I decided to take them at their word and wait and see. While I'd love to believe that, it's really hard.
Those defending the devs have said time and again that they had down played the DM client and all that this entire time and that is true they have. But in doing so they also said that the DM client would not be any better or worse than what we have in NWN1. They said if it's not broke, don't fix it. Okay. We were ready to deal with that. They went from that, and the community assumption that, well it won't be new but it'll be the same, to we may or may not have many DM features in there, but there is a console and you can script a klunky workaround (something Demetrius, whose thoughts I'd take serious on this considering his work on the old DM client, says isn't as easy as everyone is trying to make it sound).
That is what is really upsetting most people and causing them concern. It's nice they wanted a good toolset and a good OC. I'm sure both will be awesome, but they were making NWN2 and not thinking about or worrying about the DM client is really inexcusable. That's what they did. Quite simply I feel like fans are wanting an apology of some sort. I've never worked in the game industry, but I have been in the development industry. Everyone going for the same dollar, many late nights trying to get the code and builds right, etc. I'm sure they work hard and care about their work, but that doesn't really move me. No one forced them to be game developers and there are things that come with doing that job. One is always trying to satisfy a fan base you can't always satisfy. Comes with the territory. They are getting paid to do what they love, much like athletes and actors (though with considerably less money, heh). They are celebrities to varying degrees. They had to stay up until midnight to try and reassure fans because it was them that messed up and threw out the news, and one could even argued messed up and forgot about the DM client or at least misplaced how important it was to the community, which I think is clear to them now after the uproar. We're told that it was clear before that though it doesn't seem that way really, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt personally.
So while we may in varying degrees be trying to take them at their word, you can't fault people for being cynical or for saying they won't buy the game until it is complete. We were expecting NWN2, not a half finished version or a 2/3 complete version if you want. Obs brought this on themselves and I can't help but see the attempts to get the community involved in possible "new" features as a way to dress the wound they opened. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that they are doing it, but it's reactionary and as far as I can tell not even an effort started by Obs, but one they said they'd like to see more discussion on after a poster brought it up (one of many who have done so since NWN2 was announced). Still it's a good thing. It may turn out for the good if we get improvements, but honestly, Obs has no one but themselves to blame for this. Though I'm sure some may have had higher expectations, the core of the community simply thought they'd atleast get what they had and were blindsided by the fact that they wouldn't. The DM client is the only thing that makes NWN2 stand out from a gamers perspective from any other fantasy game with a good story and a toolset. So it doesn't really surprise me that the community took this so hard and I honestly don't see it as an overreaction on their part.
Yes developing a game can be hard and you have to make some hard decisions and you will make mistakes, but as in any development, when your mistakes mean you don't give your customers what they want, then someone else will get your part of that dollar. Nature of the beast. Obs dropped the ball it's that simple and no amount of how hard it is to develop a game will excuse that. They can certainly fix it and I'm choosing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will fix it and quickly, still it shouldn't have happened and I think in the end that is what the community is trying to say.
We'll see, that's all we can do I guess.
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Carlo One
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I'm not a big fan of crystal balling game developer decisions - they are driven sometimes randomly by market forces, customer demands, and management/personality issues.
That said, the DM client from what I've seen is actually not a small issue for the bottom line. Initial sales will be dominated by those primarily interested in the single-player game, but sustained sales will be more multiplayer-driven, and the DM client is a large component of that. Although non-scientific, the very high level of demand and support for the DM client reflected by the surveys at NWVault and NWN2News indicate a significant support base is being at least partly alienated.
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Mulu
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I think about a year ago I posted in some thread here words to the effect that even if NWN 2 was never made at all, it wouldn't really matter. NWN 1 works. It provides us with a mechanism to emulate PnP games over the Internet. This has never existed before. Oh, sure, you could MUD, or you could MMORPG, but NWN is the holy grail of online D&D gaming. We should be happy we ever got it. With a CTP, d20 modern, DLA and whatever else still remains to be developed for NWN 1, this game can last a long time. Forever, technically. If no one ever released another game that supported DM'ed D&D sessions, we'd still have this one.
As much as I would love to see a fantastic new version with full DM client functionality, I'm sure I'll buy NWN 2 even if just for the SP game, just like I bought Baldur's Gate I and II, expansions, and the whole Icewind Dale series.
Obviously I want to have the NWN 2 we were promised, but even if Atari pulls the plug against the wishes of Obsidian, that doesn't mean *we* have to pull the plug. Some of us have been playing together for nearly four years now; that isn't going to just evaporate because of corporate incompetance.
I played D&D during a time when TSR had stopped publishing and was looking at bankruptcy. All it did was force us to be more creative and make our own material. Again, it would suck, but it wouldn't be a bullet to the head.
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Lazybones
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True words, Mulu. While I have been getting a bit weary of NWN1 (four years is a long time in computer game time!), if it comes down to a choice between giving up my regular campaigns or diving back into Aurora, I'll definitely choose the latter. With nine FR campaigns, a half-dozen one-shots, the Team Challenge, Dragon's Village trilogy, a version of Forrestwolf's Firefly campaign, and now Star Wars, I'm still finding out new things that I can do with the NWN toolset. And you're right, there's still some good stuff in the pipeline that will continue to inspire builders.
And every time I've said, "This'll be my last NWN module," I've been wrong, so who knows. 
I think the reason folks are reacting so strongly to this latest setback, is that our hopes were raised so high by all the info surrouding NWN2. I'm the first to admit that my harsh feelings may be an overreaction, but I was so looking forward to hitting the ground running with NWN2. But only because I've had such an incredibly good time the last four years playing with my campaign groups and the others who have joined my games here at NWC.
So bottom line, I'll be ready to keep going with NWN1 if necessary. But I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for the Obsidian NWN2 team.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 13, 2006, 11:47PM » |
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deathchild
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Well, there is one point to consider.
Modules and PWs and such will have to be built before the DM client is of use. So, if we get a better game overall I think it to be a good decision.
I absolutely will not even consider buying it without a DM client.
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Starbuck79
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on May 13, 2006, 3:15 PM, Lazybones wrote:on May 13, 2006, 2:38 AM, Starbuck79 wrote:| For a company that lets go of their lead designer, doesn't bother to tell the community (and still hasn't told us why) mere months before the release, and 'planned' on keeping the DM client exclusion from the community doesn't look like a good start on building faith. |
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He was hired by Bioware, If I am not mistaken. Your talkng about Ferret right? |
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Ferret was the Lead Designer for NWN2, and worked for Obsidian, not Bioware (Black Isle before that).
http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=836 |
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I swear I read on the vault that he left obsidian for Bioware.
I can't find the specific link but I tracked this down via google from the vault:
"Ferret Baudoin, former Lead Designer for NWN2, and his wife Alice, were kind enough to send word that they are moving to Edmonton, Canada, where Ferret will take up a Senior Designer position at BioWare. Unfortunately he couldn't speak as to the circumstances behind the switch in companies nor what project he'll be working on, however it's good to hear that he will still be in the gaming community I cover."
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Dark Anya
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on May 12, 2006, 5:18 PM, Poetic Colossus wrote:
Ding!
Very true - while scripted NPC's are a far cry from a talented DM, people will still be able to play multiplayer through NWN 2's SP campaign or via multiplayer mods - and we can still use NWC to set that up. |
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I have never been able to finish a single or multiplayer module off the vault. Maybe it's just me, but roleplaying in-between dialog options, in a type of "off the side" dialogue like in theatre plays, knowing it won't influence the responses anyway, is not fulfilling at all.
The only reason I'm holding on to a visually-painful game (for me, cause I like eye candy visuals in computer games and movies) is the ability to DM for others and to play in DM-ed games. Somehow to me, without a DM, roleplaying inside NWN seems like acting without an audience. It's like playing with only one other player - you need more to validate your fantasy world. I dunno, maybe I'm weird that way.
But I was very excited for NWN2 given the freedom to build beyond tilesets and the amazing graphics to bring our imaginary worlds to life, but after being pushed back and hearing this news, I just lost much of that original optimism.
What I don't understand is why we have to cling on to this trainwreck anyway. Why don't more game developers do this DM-toolset thing with their games? I'm not bound to D&D, dear game developers everywhere. You don't have to go through Atari's license to please me  Just make me more games to control and shape for the players and I'll change my name to Light Anya and smile more 
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Ochobee
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I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but one of the things that I hope Atari considers when looking at the support of this game is the long term revenue stream that support of features like the DM client provide. The game is approaching 4 years old and it still seems to be selling even without being relegated to a bargain bin. It's had two successful expansions and 4 mini-modules released that still sell. Why does it still sell so well?
It is the community.
NWN has a still thriving community, and I believe a large reason for that is because it offers the ability to do something that no other game out there does: the ability to create living game worlds.
To quote an Atari press release, "The Neverwinter Nights franchise has sold more than two million copies worldwide, is translated into 10 languages, sold in more than 40 countries and features one of the largest and most active fan communities in all of gaming."
The toolset is fantastic for illustrating those worlds with colorful sets that allow for depicting the worlds inside and out and populate them with all many of beings. It is the DM client that brings those worlds to life.
Single player modules can have amazing dialogue and careful scripting to allow for a story to unfold in a variety of ways based on how you play, but there will never be enough ways for it to be truly adaptive to a player. You can offer 15 different ways to ask the innkeeper about your quest, but you will always force your words into a player's mouth and set limits as to how a conversation can go.
The DM client gives the power to make any NPC a living, thinking being- one who can be treacherous or comedic, quick-witted or dumb as a post. Better still, he can adapt to answer any question or comment the player can throw. When in trouble, the DM controlled NPC (or monster) can immediately summon help appropriate to the situation. If amused, the NPC can offer a tribute to the players- one appropriate to the background description for that specific player. Each NPC will absolutely respond to the player as appropriate for his reputation.
The toolset is great, but there are other games out there that have shipped with robust toolsets. There were when NWN originally launched as well. But there is nothing close to the DM client. I truly believe it is this "niche" community that helped prop up interest in the game and extended its life. When interest in the single player game had waned (remember all of the cries of "boring OC!" before the first expansion?) it was this community that held together. When the single players had moved on to the next big thing the people here were just starting to gather momentum. How many picked up interest in DM'd games after seeing the article on Bioware's site for the Fleet Street guys? The group that wanted to run DM'ed games remained because there was nowhere else to go, and they stayed through all of the work to upgrade the DM client to what it is today.
Supporting the DM client, both before and after release, is a small investment on a long term return. You may not guarantee yourself a spot atop the weekly sales chart, but you will put yourself in a great position to have spot on the sales chart for several years.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 16, 2006, 4:36AM » |
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Aldinvineda
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Reading all the prior posts was quite an interesting experience. My feelings were actually following the emotion in this thread. Anger, disappointment, rationalisation and now a sort of limbo.
I've watched the video trailers where El Presidente talks about NWN2 and the single player game. You know what struck me the first time? He sounded so ~geeky~ for a CEO. I could sense his happiness as a gamer, being able to create and play with something that brought to life all those wonderful places and creatures he had imagined in his mind while playing with his friends on a couch with some die, pencils and pieces of paper.
After the product launch, initial game reviews, and sales figures, the dust settles while the majority of the buyers switch to the next game; it is continued support of the hardcore community, which in this case happens to include all of us at NWC that keeps games alive.
Essentially, we are the ones who value the DM client. Look at the whole post-launch DM client release this way:
on May 12, 2006, 9:45 PM, Poetic Colossus wrote:
You also now get the added bonus of having a development team's full attention... to the DM Client's production, after the toolset and SP are finished. |
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The Devs are taking all the time and care possible to give us something that we will appreciate. And after seeing the fantastic job they've done with the graphics and toolset in NWN2, I'm quite pleased... no, thankful actually that they will be focusing their efforts on creating a new DM client specifically for NWN2.
Quite a few of us have said we will not buy the game without the DM client. Very well. Wait for the ~complete~ product then. I have faith that Feargus will keep his word because at heart, he's one of us.
For now, I'm going back to enjoy playing with my friends in this wonderful community.
Cheers,
AV
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