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Topic: I've decided to stop playing NWN. (Read 369 times) |
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Julian Northrop
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Short Version: I've decided to quit NWN because I don't have the RP skill to be useful, and would've wasted a better player's spot and also limited the freedom of others with arbitrary IC dictums.
NOTE: This was originally intended as a private message to my comrades but I thought it would be useful to someone for some reason, and decided to edit it into a post.. of some type.. guess it would be observational commentary by an FPS gamer or is it now RPG gamer? I don'no, probably both at this point.. hmm.. family guy?
My introduction to RP'ing happened three weeks ago, before then I've never been interested in the concept. I've played a total of two NWN multi-player games and have had about six hours of exposure to RP'ing.
I've realized something after watching an episode of Cowboy Bebop on AS..
Compared to my previous tournament/ladder experience, NWN doesn't require hours of practice every week to maintain a sufficient level of skill. The minimum requisites IMHO, would be a familiarity of the game's interface and effective PvP knowledge. The primary skill (arguably role-playing) utilized in NWN is not learned from the game itself. This in contrast to FPS/RTS games that demand memorization of specific attributes and functions, pertaining to the game and/or its genre. The skills I've witnessed in my RPG career are based on INT, CHAR, WIS, and indoctrination of the game's culture. What I mean by the last entry is e.g. how much knowledge one posses of medieval Europe to effectively and believably portray a citizen of the era. Or how much Star Wars fiction you've assimilated, to convincingly RP a Jedi with character depth. My weakness at this became unsettlingly obvious after analyzing my RP performance last week. I've concluded that my limited Middle English vocabulary prevented me from expressing my feelings without seeming uncharacteristic (I'm USA MTV gen).
After watching the Cowboy Bebop episode. I wondered how hard it would be to RP in that universe, and I was surprised to discover just how easy it was for me. The reason is because unlike most RPG's (medieval fantasy loosely based on Europe's past), Cowboy Bebop's culture is modern and my comments didn't break the RP mood because they aren't uncharacteristic of the population of that era. It was a nice way to gain insight into the RP skills of others who are familiar with the atmosphere of DnD games. I haven't even watched the entire LoTR trilogy, just the final episode to save time.. blasphemy!  Thus my inability to RP a variety of characters who can effectively integrate themselves into one-shots and campaigns, is decidedly detrimental.
I've played the guard who focused on military tactics and loyalty because that's what my FPS experience was when I played for a team. Beyond that I could possibly RP Mr. Bean. Otherwise I've predicted the general dynamics of my games based on RP and past experience: I'm limited to portraying the militant character because it's what I'm most familiar with FPS/RP-wise. As a militant character I'd have to be high-ranking otherwise my commanders would do the talking (e.g. don't speak unless spoken to). I'd feel guilty taking up a better role-player's spot and only uttering truncated phrases with the word "sir" in them. So.. as a high-ranking military official, you the citizen, had better follow my orders, or conflict ensues.. yeah, I don't want every game to become a boot camp. I know that many people would consider me bossing them around to be IC and they would gladly follow (e.g. how often would you say "no" to a cop, or judge?). Others would use it as an opportunity to RP their anti-authoritative character, and I respect both styles. Although I can't, in good conscience, allow myself to dominate their right to have fun. I thought of it this way: Would the game be more fun to others if a domineering, zero-tolerance char played, or a savvy rogue char with razor sharp wit and a penchant for debating?
It's obvious to me which character is more enjoyable for others, and I don't posses the DnD/LoTR familiarity to successfully portray the rogue. Think of every medieval fantasy based media you've ever perceived and how it contributed to your innate ability to RP characters in the DnD setting. I was never a fan of that genre so my tank is basically empty. It's easier for me to find a new game with less focus on RP and more focus on basic co-op/teamplay (where my heart lies). As for any who would suggest H&S GuildWars-esque play styles for NWN, thank you  but I'm more of the Mass Effect (Sci-Fi) type.
http://masseffect.bioware.com
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/656/656108p1.html
Interesting addendum:
As an FPS gamer having high framerate is key to victory. Alas, there are times when I often increase graphic quality and sacrifice framerates to immerse myself as soldier. I've just realized it was a mild form of RP. I would call it visual RP'ing because I could say "spam flag" and still maintain the level of immersion. Perhaps subconsciously perceived as a soldier communicating with his team, which is why it never bothered me consciously..
Thanks to everyone who helped me when I needed it, you know who you are. *finger guns* 
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=14169
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Lazybones
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Well, ultimately only you can decide if the enjoyment derived from the game is worth the effort required. And it does require an effort to fit into an RP group.
But with that said, I will note that I've never played a game of NWN where the use of middle English speech styles were the norm (aka "Shakespearian" styles, thees and thous and soforth). In fact, while many players do enjoy creating unique speech styles for their characters (crotchety dwarves with quasi-Scottish accents, or northerners with Conanesque styles), most just talk in normal speech. The trick is to create a role and then play as that person would react to the in-game events. That's not as easy as it may first seem, nor is it as hard as some might think. For those who are just starting I suggest that they begin by roleplaying themselves. In other words, create a character with the same basic personality as the roleplayer, just shifted in origin from the real world to the game world.
As a DM/host, about the only thing that I try to regulate is the avoidance of modern speech/mannerisms that would disrupt immersion (i.e. chatting about computers, or knock knock jokes, or slang terms that are jarringly 21st century). Otherwise, I let players be "themselves"... or rather, who they are pretending to be. 
I have had players who were concerned that they didn't know enough about the setting to roleplay effectively. This generally isn't a problem either. I often try to work with players to create a generic background that doesn't require that the PC be intensely connected to the broader events of the world-setting, and in most cases a few Web links give more than enough information to get started. Heck, most real people in our contemporary "setting" know next to nothing of history, geography, and politics anyway, so it's not that far-fetched.
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Alpha Omega
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Julian - Obviously I haven't played with you, and so maybe those that have will disagree with me - but sounds to me are quite the perfectionist, and vastly over-reacting. I think you've very well described the essence of RPGs - although you need a decent knowledge of the game mechanics (which is fairly quickly learnable, just like any other game), more of the focus is on player-to-player interation. Just realizing that is a huge step. You've just started, and so this is new to you, and for understandable reasons you feel less self-confident than you do with FPS with which you are apparently very experienced. Remember - EVERYONE was a beginner at some point, and also - particularly in a RPG - the bar isn't necessarily that high. In a FPS, if you mess up you and/or your teammates die - with role-playing (which it sounds like is the portion of the game you are most concerned with) that isn't at all the case. Not all campaigns are focused on speaking in "Olde English" - in the campaign I play in, one player (the dwarf) speaks with a kind of Scottish accent, but otherwise most use standard English. Although in some settings perhaps a good background knowledge of the "culture", as you say, is helpful, in most it absolutely is not. Much of the fun of role-playing just requires all the characters interacting - including yours! If this is new to you, play something that doesn't feel like a stretch for you, like a soldier - which it sounds like you are doing. Gradually feel more assertive about speaking up - maybe you can become the (or a) leader on elementary tactics, and expanding your role in the party. Trust me - the most important ingredient is interest and willingness to try - and if you are so willing to quit because you are concerned you are reducing the enjoyment of others, frankly, you sound like the kind of player I'd like to play with. I suggest you give another campaign (or even a one-shot) a try, ideally one that is at lower levels (and thus less game-stuff to learn), and try to meet some additional players - many here would be willing to work with and educate a new and interested participate. (Too, note that there is a way to send private messages to other party members which don't have to be IC (in character), and so via that private channel you could get advice/assistance in-game.) Maybe not terribly easy to find one at the moment, as NWN is a fairly mature game and the number of players has dropped somewhat - but NWN2 is just around the corner, and there will likely be a huge influx of new interest and players upon its release. (I'd recommend to you the campaign I play in, but it is currently both full and very high level, which I think would be a bit overwhelming for a new player from a game knowledge standpoint - 100s of spells, too many game options, etc.) Best of luck!
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Xiphias
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on May 21, 2006, 12:26 PM, Julian Northrop wrote:| Would the game be more fun to others if a domineering, zero-tolerance char played, or a savvy rogue char with razor sharp wit and a penchant for debating? |
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Well I certainly laughed out loud when I read your post.
I suppose you were just lucky (or possibly unlucky) to find a good game to begin with. At the start I got the idiots who didn't co-operate and the DM and module designers who thought roleplaying mundane tasks (hunting for food, preparing to rest) was fun, I almost gave up for the opposite reason - thinking all this 'roleplaying' stuff was a load of nonsense.
I wouldn't worry about the background stuff. (Last movie? You mean you haven't even read the books?!?). I've read the hobbit and lord of the rings once or twice but I'm mostly into science-fiction and my only experience with DnD has come from bioware games. As for the ~1200AD england you might want to look up cantabury tales in it's original form, that's was written around then. You can have a cookie if you can understand more than one word in ten.
And as others have said there is the occasional non-DnD, non-real world game around. Currently I'm playing in a firefly campaign based on the American TV series of the same name, it's sort of a sci-fi western with the ethos of the later but set to a background of space travel and a dozen or so human planets.
I'd say try a few more games, deciding you don't like it because your not having fun is fine but I'd recommend trying a few more styles of game first.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 21, 2006, 10:42PM » |
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J'Dai Voisin
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on May 21, 2006, 11:14 PM, karvon wrote:As a long time player of rogues, I will state that they all don't have to have razor wit and fast talking skills. One of my more personally entertaining rogues to play was a very low charisma guy who barely ever said anything at all. He communicated mostly by gestures *emotes* and occasional phrases. When pushed he would use full sentences
Some party members were annoyed with him at first, but got used to him after a few sessions
Karvon |
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That's a terrific point. One of the best RPers, IMO, is Moss Troll. The first time I played with him, he had a Monk that had no tongue, so EVERYTHING was a series of grunts and gestures. He was remarkable and I still count that game as one of my very favorite NWN experiences.
It could not have been easy but he made it look good.
Anyhow, my point is that it takes ALL styles of games AND players. No sense stopping while there is still much more to try and do.
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Julian Northrop
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To expand upon Cowboy Bebop. The reason it worked so well as an example is because I solely focused on the ability to express my thoughts while conversing, without feeling limited by a lack of Middle English vocabulary. I didn't attempt to RP social interaction as another person because I centered on speech and not empathy. Upon further introspection I've discovered that I simply don't want to portray other people and personalities. I really like who I am and would rather be myself in an RP setting than to imagine being anyone else. That was surprisingly selfish prima facie, but it's without the standard negative connotation that's often attributed to selfish behavior(action at the expense of others), this is concisely analogue to "love thyself". Anyway, it differs from games with cinematic focus on a pre-defined character (e.g. Tomb Raider)because I'm not required to think and speak as that person. I don't feel comfortable emulating the emotional mindset of others (I'd be a terrible actor ), because it strangely feels as though I'm betraying myself (don'no how else to explain it  ). This aversion is subjective and may develop aberrantly amongst those who dislike RP'ing.
The solution may have been to RP a paladin-esque character so that our ideologies synchronized without the above aversion. Unfortunately a majority of fun would be limited by another aspect of my personality: I love making a squad more tactically combat effective and organized. That worked well when I had the power of rank in our militant hierarchy because my teammates expected such. In a game with unwritten rules of IC social consent. You may find yourself tolerating many undesirable traits of another person's char because it's akin to the variations found in reality. Though for me, this doesn't justify the feeling I have when I tell someone what to do with their 1-3 hours of gameplay. This isn't my team and we aren't competing, these are people who enjoy the surreal and engaging conversations they have IC. The camaraderie they may feel as familiarity of their party members develops, and most importantly: having fun, however it occurs.
Note: I've considered RP'ing without my inclination to micromanage behavioral patterns, and I felt incomplete. As though I derive the majority of my fun from, simply put, giving my team its orders and having them achieve a victory in attrition. I suppose that's my true play style.
So that is my conclusion with regard to deeper consideration of IC player interaction based on my presumed greater capacity to RP any conceivable character. It isn't actually the game's environment anymore. Now that I've thought about it, this will always apply to every RPG I play from fantasy to Sci-Fi. I'm just not the inherent RP'ing type. Thanks for the replies, they're very thoughtful and complimentary.
By the way, could you imagine some guy telling a cop "no" to every command he gave? The cop would be completely baffled, his initial expression would be priceless! I think I'll try that just once to see where it goes. Maybe I'll record it law-permitting.. single party consent and such. I should probably start low though.. maybe a security guard... maybe lower, like a hall monitor. Then work my way back up to that cop and show him who's boss.
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Julian Northrop
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Admin could I be allowed to retain this account? I may receive more private messages from ex-party members and I'd like to respond if necessary.
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Dane Bramage
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on May 22, 2006, 6:18 PM, Julian Northrop wrote:| Upon further introspection I've discovered that I simply don't want to portray other people and personalities. I really like who I am and would rather be myself in an RP setting than to imagine being anyone else. |
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Not trying to be snotty, but that is precisely the purpose of ROLE PLAYING... to pretend that you are someone else. To place yourself in the mindset of being someone else so you could experience life from thier perspective for a little while.
Sounds to me like you just don't like role play. There is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people don't like/understand role playing. There are tons of game out there that don't involve RP and focus more on tactical teamwork. BF 1942 is certainly a good one.
I commend you for trying some thing out of the norm for you. Being adventerous is important for having a full and rewarding life. I hope you find that perfect game that gives you that fix you seek. Good luck.
Dane.
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Von Stalhein
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Not to disagree with you outright Dane, but personally, when I roleplay, I usually find that I'm exploring aspects of my personality. True, my characters are not me, but they usually have some aspect of me in them.
Gaolven Bremner, a bard I play for instance, inherits embodies the more musical aspects of me - while combined with an extroverted nature that is definitely not me.
Lin Kuo, on the other hand, represents my more reserved and thoughtful aspects - while still retaining a bit of brash youth.
Finally, Geldin is my "thinking" character. Unlike Kuo, who's wisdom is predetermined, Geldin is a philosopher - always viewing what happens in the bigger picture; and philosophy is something that I have a great interest in.
In all honesty, there is no reason one cannot roleplay "oneself" into an NWN game. Perhaps not lock stock and barrel, but you can certainly use yourself as the "springboard" for a character; and in doing so, maybe make playing that character a little more natural.
Just another 2 cents.
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Rofelli
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I haven't played in a game in forever and a day (like, over a year), and nobody's yanked my account. I've more-or-less dropped to lurker status (except when I blab on and on in somebody's private forum), and nobody's yanked my account yet, so you should be alright.
As for playstyles, yeah, if you don't enjoy RP, then don't play RP. That simple.
As for how people play, it's the same thing: some people want to play people similar to themselves, others don't; in reality, all characters are on a continuum in regards to how similar they are to their creator.
It's all a matter of your own preferences.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 22, 2006, 7:53PM » |
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Yokim
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I'll tell you this: A few years ago, I started to realize that my sence of Rping was starting to dissapear. I didn't think it was funny anymore. So I stopped playing NWN.
A few months after that I thought: NWN? Well that was a long time ago... So I re-installed it and started to play again. And man wasn't that fun. So my suggestion is: Sure, stop now.. But try to play it again in maybe a few months.
That can help. Trust me.
-Yokim
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Lew
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Sounds like you happened to land in a group whose expectations didn't match yours. There are plenty of groups out there where you could do just fine and, more importantly, have fun. I know it's hard to find groups now- since NWN is an old game and there aren't as many players as there used to be, but stick with it.
EDIT: I'd also add, there are many fine PWs out there that offer a fun experience. You can log in, just RP, just kill stuff, or any mix of the two, and log out whenever you want.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 23, 2006, 9:27PM » |
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LIONofHUME
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As a real world soldier and as a long time player of FPS with my clan at Warrior Nation (Go Sentinels) I can see Julian Northrop’s point of view on some topics. True, “Imagination”, is not something one practices, at being good at. But to say that a CRPG takes less time then a FPS game takes to become proficient at is also not a fair statement. On the contrary, the complexity of most CRPG far and away requires more time and thought. And don’t even get me started on paper and pencil RPG’s, I’ve played and DM’d, PnP games for over thirty two years and I haven’t mastered everything the game has to offer. Compare that to a two or three month learning curve with most FPS games playing solo and another two months practice for team play and you get the idea of what I’m saying.
Role-playing has many definitions to many people. I’m not going to voice my definition here, but I will say that no one person, no matter how long they have played role-playing games (Computer and PnP) and no matter how good they think they are with the system, can write the one true and correct way to role-play. That’s what makes RPG’s so much fun, the uniqueness of its players. The same dungeon crawl can be played a million times with a million different players and no two sessions will be the same. Why? Because of “Imagination”. Who cares that you can’t shift speech patterns from one player to the next. Who cares that you don’t know medieval history. You could respond with grunts only and still be role-playing well. No Julian, your style of role-playing is just as creditable as anyone else, and you shouldn’t have to feel like your being judged by it. If you are then the folks you have been playing with have no clue what this medium is all about. I would encourage you to give it another go.
Role-playing games are not about maxing out your characters and accumulating kills and gold. They are about interactions with the game world and its inhabitants, and those can be as varied as are own real world.
Regardless of your choice, I applaud your attempts at trying a new medium. Good luck with your future gaming, and maybe I’ll see ya around on a CoD or BF2 server…LION
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