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Topic: Atari Ends Support for NWN (Read 409 times) |
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Von Stalhein
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This is taken from Maximus over at NWVault (though this is apparently a summary of information given by Steel_Wind, head of the DLA project):
| ...on Friday May 5 in the afternoon - that's the Friday immediately before E3 was to begin and senior Biz people were out of the office at Bio Ware, Atari called to tell Bio Ware they were stopping the premium mod program and not authorizing any further patches for NWN1. The live team was disbanded and our mod will not be sold. |
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The full story is here:
http://nwvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=17826
Disappointing news certainly, but perhaps understandable given 1) the time NWN has been supported for 2) the upcoming release of NWN2 and 3) Atari's much-blamed financial situation.
There also [seems to have] been some discussion over the possibility that Atari wanted to stop further development of NWN so that features that are (possibly) slated for NWN2 didn't get integrated into NWN as part of a premium module.
At least 1.67 can be viewed as something of a worthy "last patch" - more than just a slew of bug fixes.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 27, 2006, 6:05PM » |
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Kalia D'Malen
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Pfft...there's an 8 page thread here:
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=482672&forum=95
I am disappointed in the obviously ham-fisted way Atari handled the situation but as others have said on the official forums, the DLA people had a business relationship with Bioware to produce custom content. A business is a business and there's no guarantee that it will go the way everyone would like it to go.
Sorry to say, but the days of infinite support of NWN 1 were coming to a close anyhow. The live team will of necessity be moving on to other projects that are more financially salient to Bioware and leave "updating" and added content to Obsidian for NWN 2. It's rare that -any- game is supported for as long as NWN 1 has been. All good things come to an end and, while an ugly one, the end of the support was not unexpected.
This will in no way impact my decision to purchase NWN 2 on the day of release. Hating what was done to DLA/CODI by Atari makes me all the more resolved to ensure that the same doesn't happen to Obsidian. Those guys have worked long and hard on a game that they appear to be very proud of and they shall have my dollars even if it means Atari gets a portion of it. It's in everyone's best interests to make sure that Atari, or at least Obsidian, remains financially viable so that we can continue to see patches and add-one, not to mention expansions, for NWN 2.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 27, 2006, 8:02PM » |
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Etarnon
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Since I'm not going to waste my time, and years of work in converting my mod/server to NWN2, any money I would spend on it would be a waste.
I am not responsible for their financial solvency, they are.
See all you NWN die hards after the "New Kid" on the block makes a few ripples in the community, and then sinks.
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Kalia D'Malen
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I don't think that the impact of this issue is as important as we may wish it was. The rumored facts are that the game sells and is largely marketed to casual single-player gamers. A few people withholding dollars isn't going to make much of an impact, sorry to say, though the long-term effects will remain to be seen and doubtless be more serious than Atari thinks.
As for me personally, while I vehemently disagree with Atari's tactics, I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'll buy, play and enjoy the game as will many others. The community will rebuild itself, maybe even surprising most of us 'old timers' with a fresh influx of creative, imaginitive, dedicated CC people, builders, modders, DMs and players.....and maybe see some of the 'old guard' brought back in.
But, even if not, Dragon Age is just around the bend and we can only hope that DLA will play a large role in the community when it IS released.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 28, 2006, 1:51AM » |
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Starbuck79
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From Derek French at Bio:
"Some clarification. It never was the NWN Live Team. It has always been the BioWare Live Team. We have worked on NWN, both expansions, all the updates, helped with the BioWare Community Site, external license parties, KotOR PC and now Jade PC, and Dragon Age in the future. Our size and staffing has always fluctuated with the work load. Me and my programmers have about 3 years of work lined up in front of us.
Also, Atari has not been involved in any of the patches for NWN in the last year or so, except for approving new content additions.
There will be a 1.68 update for NWN as there is a significant bug in 1.67 that exists, but thankfully has a workaround. 1.68 will be the last update for NWN and we have been saying that for a while now."
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Kalia D'Malen
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I read that too but, truth be told, I take either side's posts with a grain of salt. Each has put their own spin on the matter. Just head to the DLA site and read Steel_Wind's blog and front page article for -his- particular spin and somewhere in one of those now-locked threads is a post by Steel_Wind..um...debunking French's post.
But all spin aside, DLA, with their last couple of mods 95% complete and ready for release, got a raw deal from Atari, not from Bioware and decidedly not from Obsidian. I suspect that really Obsidian will be the innocent victim in all of this hullaballoo.
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Lazybones
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Just when I cannot think of how I could dislike Atari any more, they always find a new way.
The chimps really are running the asylum over there.
I think I am actually rooting for them to go bankrupt next quarter. Would suck for NWN2's long-term future, but it might be for the best; they wouldn't be able to screw as many gamers and developers in the future. I'm glad Bioware survived their affiliation with them; Troika wasn't quite so lucky.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 28, 2006, 4:30AM » |
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Etarnon
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Well said, Lazybones.
Just to be clear, it is not so much a matter of leading some kind of boycott against NWN2 (I really don't have the time, or interest, personally), as it is that there is so much NWN content in haks, fan-authored content and tools, modules, scripts and everything else I've used for the last nearly three years now, it doesn't make any sense for me to go to "Faster, better, newer" with NWN2, when it will require a total rebuild from go on a whole server, with all new software, and the bugs, etc, regularly associated with any new venture of this type.
Having NWN2 in hand is not going to significantly help me in telling stories with any more depth. Better graphics, perhaps, but I don't care. I used to regularly game on OpenRPG where the graphics you had was one pic loaded from a website, the rest of the game was text, in a chat room.
If I need to have wavy trees in my nwn server I shout "You see the trees waving" during a DM'ed scenario.
It will require a machine an order more powerful than I have, that I won't be able to afford...the areas, since they are more complex will need to be smaller, the list goes on.
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Dungeon_Llama
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I saw something on TV recently that said that if Atari would cut their relationship with their parent company (forget who it is, something with a V) they would actually have a shot at surviving. That aside, I'm not so concerned about what happened to DLA. It does suck in one regard, but at the same time I've been hearing about something coming from DLA for nearly three years now and there has been very little to come out from them. Mostly some custom content, that has been nice, but it seemed like they were going and going and going and then nothing happened. Then apparently they decided to turn from making their DL mod and they were making DD content. While that's great for them, I had given up on ever seeing anything come out of DLA aside from their promise something was coming. Now, three years after they started, one mod is coming out. I'm sure it will be awesome and I will play it, but still to me it doesn't seem like it will have the impact on the community that it would have a year or more back. Still I understand why they are angry and I do feel they should be paid for the time they put into it and if they were targeted that is a mess, but little they can do.
Community wise DLA hasn't really had the impact that they have a rep for in my opinion. Many of their individual members certainly have, but most of that was before they were DLA. I would have loved to have some DLA quality tilesets and such a year or so ago and I was really excited about their DL screenshots, but nothing ever came of it. I'm sure those staying with NWN will love the new stuff and I'm sure it will be awesome. DLA is a very professional crew that is for sure, but three years of this is coming and that is coming and we finally get one mod. Anyway, not trying to bash DLA, as I said their stuff is awesome looking and they are very professional, but just seems a bit late for it to really impact the NWN community. Though it will give me something to play until NWN2.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone will attack that, since every seems to love DLA. Anyway, Atari may go, but they don't own the overall rights to D&D license. Someone else will buy it and take it one and keep things going. We can only hope it's a good company if Atari loses it. Though I personally think, after seeing the success of NWN for four years, they'll not let NWN2 go so easily..they meaning the industry.
Just my thoughts.
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Kalia D'Malen
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I wouldn't think to jump on you for your feelings about DLA. Really, up to this point, I would see their moniker in a signature and think, "Meh..."
That said, however, I still think they got a raw deal from Atari. Since overall support for NWN was going to be cut off at the end of the year anyhow, Atari could have just let it go to then or let them release the premium mods, get their professional due and THEN pull the plug. It's just sloppy business mangagement and doesn't endear the producer to anyone. To purposely alienate a very vocal if small group of the modding/custom content community is just plain stupid.
However, in the great land of the internet, 3 months is an eternity and most memories are pretty short...community-wise, not DLA-wise. Maybe Atari's gambling that doing it NOW is wiser than waiting until September.
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J'Dai Voisin
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I remember doing the DLA and CoDI (City of Doors Initiative) chat at the first NWCon and thinking "Whoa - we are gonna see some GREAT stuff!" And then *pfft* from both teams.
I wish ANY community project the best the luck. Business is business and, sadly, software is VERY cutthroat. The gaming industry aspect is even moreso.
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Demetrious
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While I do not think the loss will feel terrible, it is a significant blow to the NWN2 community if that group never sets foot within NWN2.
If the game is great, it won't matter, but if the game is marginal, these are the people that in weeks could make dramatic changes.
The current DLA group is large. Some 35 members plus QA testers. It is not the original group. If you have used file explorers, or any of Lisa's Haks, or CEP stuff, or based on GZ - essentially any of the new scripting functions in 1.67 - then you will be affected.
Again, I'm not saying they are completely responsible for all of this, but they have been basic components of them.
Certainly new blood may replace and exceed what they did but in the last 18 months they have become pretty professional IMO and it will take time for anyone to be able put together a group that is capable of duplicating what they would bring to the community. IMO, to poo poo the contributions of those lead teams isn't fair.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 30, 2006, 2:52PM » |
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Dane Bramage
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My only real problem with DLA is how the treated thier very loyal community of onlookers. From thier point of view... they owe us nothing. They have said as much not in so many words, but in a round about laweresque way. The reason for that, is that they had higher aspirations then just being a "mod team". Thier goal was to become a professional development team. That I cannot fault them, but they went many, many months telling thier fans that the mod would be published "when it was done" which was not true at all. What they meant to say was "when the deal is done".
I had followed the development of DLA-1 since the sping of '04. I run a Dragonlance PnP, so you can imagine my excitement when I discovered that there was a group that was producing tiles and creatures for the Dragonlance setting. Now... imagine my frustration when I found out that they haven't been working on it for over a year! I know they were under the restraints of a NDA, but they probably could have said something to the effect that... "we have had to suspend work on DLA-1 to work on something else. Stay tuned." That is all it would have taken.
I'm sure Steel-Wind or Lisa will come back and spin to not make them look bad. Whatever. I have no sympathy. I consider it karma.
You might say that I'm bitter about it... and truth be told I am a bit bitter. Thier attitude has been all along, we don't owe the community anything. I think that's pretty sh*tty. If it weren't for the community, then no one would have taken notice of them in the first place. They owe everything to the community. Now... they don't get diddly. I think that's justice. I would never have wished this one them, but truth be told, I am having a good laugh over this.
Go a head and flame me all you want. It won't change my opinion.
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| « Last Edit: on: May 30, 2006, 5:47PM » |
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Demetrious
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Dane - Honestly I believe your position is very valid. Just for the record, I'm not sure what I think about the semi-pro approach - but I do think they were/are in a position to very quickly produce content for NWN2.
My point wasn't any broader than reminding people just how much they have contributed despite (as of today) showing essentially nothing of what the initial group claimed to be creating.
FYI, I've talked to several people who have seen the content and 100% have been hugely impressed - so maybe they earn back something - and maybe not.
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Lazybones
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Anything that drives away talented custom content producers from NWN2 is a bad thing in my book. I have heard the arguments for why Atari did this, and they might be valid, but how they went about it was abominable.
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Dungeon_Llama
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, I think what Atari did was low and FiringSquads talk with the PR person was laughable. It comes down to they are ending support for NWN in favor of NWN2. DLA still supposedly has a month to go on their mod, but depending on how long they've worked on it, it should have been good to go. I do wonder what the financial agreements were though.
As to what DLA has contributed, they have contributed some, but honestly most of their current people released most of their content BEFORE joining DLA. Most of Lisa's clothes haks for instance. Though again, I feel they have been positive for the community, I just fell as Dane does that they gave us alot of hype, but not much product. They have coded some useful tools to be sure, back in the early days when they were doing it for their DL mod, but after that it's mostly been upgrades and promises. Though I'm less frustrated than Dane, I just think vaporware when I think DLA. I was excited about the new content and a couple years later wondering...weren't they about to release something? Heh.
I certainly don't begrudge them becoming their own studio and getting ins with the likes of Bioware, etc, but just like it's not good for Atari to alienate a clearly talented and professional group of mod makers, likewise it's not good for a group wanting to be a studio on their own to only make promises and never deliver. This mod they will release will no doubt be very good, but its simply 2-3 years too late to matter much to me. If NWN2 came out in July as it was expected, I wouldn't personally give the DLA mod a second look as I'd be busy with the new game.
Anyway, I do wish DLA the best and would not try to say they have done nothing for the community, they've done some, I just can't bring myself to think they've done alot when I think of the Adam Millers, Stefen Gagne's, and many other hall of fame mod makers that kept this community going for so long, not to mention those people here that get much less recognition but have driven this community so much over the past years. So for me, when I think of this community DLA comes lower on the list than many others. They rank high for hype however. Heh.
If you haven't yet seen the FiringSquad thing, here it is. Basically Atari dodges the question.
http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=10472
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| « Last Edit: on: May 31, 2006, 5:08AM » |
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Mulu
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DLA, CODI and CTP have all been vaporware for a long time now. I stopped paying attention to anything they claimed long ago, though I always remained hopeful.
To me, what I worry about most is the future of NWN2. What if it's just a mess of lethal bugs like TOEE, and after getting their initial sales binge Atari pulls the plug? No patches, no upgrades, no further content at all. *That's* my nightmare scenario. Obsidian is not Bioware, they don't have the resources to keep on chugging on their own. I'm sure a lot of people are going to stick with NWN1 for their campaigns, for the reasons stated above: hardware, time invested, and let's face it, it works. I wonder if we may all end up doing so.
Oh well, no sense worrying about it until we see the product. 
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Slare
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*sigh* I am sorry to see this happen to anyone who has contributed to the NWN community...but I am not surprised. Not only does Atari suck, but if you want to get a team together and get to the big leagues of game design, you gotta produce.
Its not like DLA was doing an Obsidian and esssentially remaking the game from the ground up. It was just a mod....you just can't spend years and years working on a mod (no matter how extensive), never release anything, and expect to be taken seriously. Unlike Obsidian, who knew they had a set number of Zots to spend and then prioritized accordingly (as much as we may not agree with their decisions), DLA may well have had a serious case of feature creep, wich is an extremly common fatal error in many software projects.
I'm glad DLA gave it a shot nevertheless, and perhaps their next project will be better managed and more successful as a result. I really do hope they take what they learned and apply it to NWN2, and not take Atari's (mostly justified IMHO) business decision personally. Live and learn!
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Poetic Colossus
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on May 31, 2006, 8:59 PM, Slare wrote:
Its not like DLA was doing an Obsidian and esssentially remaking the game from the ground up. It was just a mod....you just can't spend years and years working on a mod (no matter how extensive), never release anything, and expect to be taken seriously. Unlike Obsidian, who knew they had a set number of Zots to spend and then prioritized accordingly (as much as we may not agree with their decisions), DLA may well have had a serious case of feature creep, wich is an extremly common fatal error in many software projects.
I'm glad DLA gave it a shot nevertheless, and perhaps their next project will be better managed and more successful as a result. I really do hope they take what they learned and apply it to NWN2, and not take Atari's (mostly justified IMHO) business decision personally. Live and learn! |
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Yep. Nice insight btw dude.
Definitely looking forward to seeing Wyvern's Crown though.
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characters. What they were trying to do was reproduce the entire Dragonlance saga element for element. DLA-1 was to be a single player mod where you chose which one of the heros from the books to play and the rest of them was in the party. Since NWN could not handle that level of party control, the project was doomed right from that point on. It is a true tagety since their work is of such high quality.