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Topic: NWN2: The Future (Read 986 times) |
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Starbuck79
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In a hope to bring the discussion back on track and I partially take responsibility for it's locking, Lets start a thread on what we would like to see. I know there's a million but lets work HERE to organize. If news comes up about updates we can link here to get the word out. Please feel free to post any criticisms of the game BUT lets leave any what ifs/should have been behind. The goal of this thread, in my hope, is to help move us forward.
I believe everyone in this Community WANTS NWN2 to succeed and come everything we want it to be.
SOOOO....
I've seen a great discussion about what specific mechanic Multi-Select should take. Instead of just saying "We want Multi-select" which everyone does, lets talk about HOW we would like it to work.
Read this post http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=555335&forum=117
and post what you would like to see. R-clicking has a different functionality then NWN and if we want the DMC to work for us, we should help the Devs with out opinions.
Also here's the thread that LB posted in the others by Rob requesting your best DMing moments
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=552709&forum=117
Anyway, I hope this can get the ball rolling...
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Dane Bramage
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Well... I have spent no time in the DMC for NWN2, so I am not at all qualified to comment at this point. Considering recent events tho, I may just begin to do so.
Kudos to you Starbuck for posting this thread as a means to turn this thing back around to something constructive.
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Lazybones
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I think what NWC can do is get some DMed games of NWN2 up there. Thus far the only MP games I've seen are the OC and a few runs of Tragedy at Tragidor, which I've heard is good, but wasn't designed for MP.
Most of the folks at NWC who have been most active in building DM-friendly modules for NWN1 aren't building in NWN2 for various reasons cited elsewhere, but if someone wanted to get things going here, having a few DM-able modules would likely help.
At this same point in NWN1's lifespan, NWC was hopping, really hopping, with dozens of DMed games. Now that NWN2 is getting to the point where it's playable in MP, having some games going at NWC would give the community a jump-start IMO.
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Ghool
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First, I'd like to apologize if anyone has taken offense to any of my previous comments, but simply put, I was simply relating my experiences, and observations of this game and others, drawing comparisons, and trying to impart some ideas as to how to make things better, and what 'might' work as an alternative.
If opinions scare people, and they take offense to them, then so be it. But, I don't post to complain, and or give anyone hell. Hence, why I ask a lot of questions in my posts, which were meant to make people think.
If anyone wishes to take offense to peoples opinions, after saying they're here to listen to those opinions, well, there's not much I can do.
When one extends a hand to listen to people's opinions, then gets offended by them, and then says they're never going to listen to us again...hrm...I don't know if they really wanted to listen, except what they wanted to hear.
When you ask for some one's honest opinion, you should be expecting to hear something you find offensive, or that might hurt you. Such is the nature of asking people's opinions. I'm not here to offend. I'm here to provide an honest, genuine opinion and thoughts on the subject. I do my best to put it as lightly as possible.
But, if one wants to condemn all for one, then once again, I see an example of what kind of support is going to be offered.
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Dane Bramage
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I believe this quote may have had something to do with it...
| When a representative from Obsidian pokes in here and calls for faith, it is clear that company integrity is not a concept that has been understood. |
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I don't know about you, but I find that pretty offensive... not the least bit constructive... and of no value to anyone other then possibly the person that said it.
I think everyone's emotions are running very high on this subject and that sometimes tact and diplomacy loose out to passion... on both sides. I do think that Rob over reacted a bit, but at the same time.. he was treated pretty poorly. What's done is done. He has no respect for us as a community, and that is unfortunate. But, it is up to the individual to decide if you want to participate in the dialog that they are trying to maintain over at the Bioboards.
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Starbuck79
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Folks, I know that everyone wants to keep the discussion from the other thread going but LB locked it for a reason. Unless LB is willing to open the other back up, can we try to keep this one on topic? Hate to be a thread crapper but that was the point of this one.
LB, is it possible to move posts from one thread to another and maybe even open the other one up now that everyone has had a chance to calm down a litte? Disagreement, even heated, can be a good way to move forward. But it has it's place.
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Dane Bramage
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And that's my point. He wants input. He wants to work with the community. But he wants to move forward.
It's just like this thread (which should probably be locked now that it has been throughly threadjacked) here. It was started with the intention that we move forward discussing things to do to fix the situation and not hash over the past and vent our bitter spleens all over the place. But we can't even do that.
And besides... it wasn't just one comment. I only pulled out the worst. Your comments weren't overly offensive if just a tad bit forceful/sarcastic.
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Virthe
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For my own part I think that with patch 1.5 the DM client will be good enough for DM:ed games.
There has also been some changes in the player client in recent patches, including 1.05, which removes annoyances in Multi Player.
In short I'll look into starting a NWN2 DM:ed campaing during April and May. Look more into the Tool set and its possibilities.
Not being much of an artist myself I will rely mostly on taking areas from community produced modules and the OC. Then modify these (strip away scripts and triggers and do some terra-forming) and integrate them into the campaign.
I think OE is doing a good work in patching the game and slowly MP games in NWN 2 is becoming more enjoyable and with expanded possibilities.
I think many on NWC looks to much on what was lost (temporarily or permanently) in the transition and too little on what was gained.
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Starbuck79
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I think the OC will never been 100% ready for MP because of the plot, BUT I think that I'll be grabbing a copy of Tradegy of Tradidor, updating to 1.05 beta and giving it a shot.
Especially when it comes to Multi-select it is important that as many people try it as possible. While there are certainly features that are missing, there are also those that folks disagree with it's implementation. Had those people tried the Betas, their imput may have improved the product.
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Lazybones
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on Mar 27, 2007, 5:29 PM, Starbuck79 wrote:| LB, is it possible to move posts from one thread to another and maybe even open the other one up now that everyone has had a chance to calm down a litte? Disagreement, even heated, can be a good way to move forward. But it has it's place. |
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I can't move posts between threads, but can only delete them. And I try to only do that when absolutely necessary.
I'm going to leave this thread open for now, assuming that folks can keep it on the topic that Starbuck originally raised, which was on how to move forward on improving NWN2's multiplayer component.
If folks absolutely feel the need to address issues raised in the closed topic you can begin a new thread and the moderators will exercise judgement on its content as with any other thread. But given how toxic and personal that discussion got in the last one I do not recommend it.
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Forrestwolf
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Just wanted to pipe in here - I was horrified at what was happening on the other thread. I respect everyone here on the forums a LOT, but I sure was upset about the lost opportunity in talking to Rob McGinnis.
Rob, if you're still listening, even though I don't play NWN2, I own a copy, and WILL DM it someday, when it's 'ready.' You'll have me as part of the playerbase when you're all shaking your heads in disbelief as to how long these crazy NWN players keep going 
Everybody else (and back on topic): I think the more important section right now is the Toolset. DM's need a much easier/faster Toolset - we can do without - Drengist is giving a serious go - but we'd all do much better WITH an easier one. If Obs wants us in, they need to find a way.
As a custom content addict, I naturally want better customization support, too - 2da's need to be as fully implemented as NWN1 (custom skills, classes, music, etc.), which i don't think they are right now - and model imports have got to be easier. I don't care if polycounts are low in models I'll be bringing in - I want D20 Modern in NWN2! And we shoudn't have to rework all the models to make it happen. Heck, I put a gun in Mal's hand in NWN2 already. Obs needs to make that work, too, somehow.
Coming back to the DM Client, it sounds like it's coming along - but I just can't justify reinstalling on my poor machine until NWN2 is farther along. I'll be playing alternative modern-type NWN1 until then.
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Starbuck79
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Forrest,
I think your comments about the toolset are important. The beauty and trouble with either NWN or 2 is the harmony that is required between app three parts, Toolset, DMC, and Engine. We could have a perfect DMC but without a functional toolset it's not very useful.
I am wondering if you could be more specific when you say "DM's need a much easier/faster Toolset" what exactly do you mean? Please try to be as specific as possible. Someone else mentioned the need for wizards. I think that part of the problem is that NWN2 is so much more powerful it is going to be more complicated by nature. That said, anything that we can directly suggest for improvement would go a long way.
IIRC, there is still an issue with placing Trees and forests. Is that still the case? Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to implement a correction?
Also, SOmewhere and I'll try to find the link, I saw an interesting discussion about custom content and file management. It came down to how haks and overwrites would be organized. IIRC, one of the developers was testing the waters on having all module and content be organized by sub-folder instead of dumping everything into a central Hak folder like NWN has. This would be much easier for modules to be installed as everything would go into a single subfolder by campaign or module.
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Drengist
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Everything is a matter of time.
When you start the toolset for the first time you get frustrated very fast. Yes, the learning curve is steep, but in my experience only in the beginning.
Once you learnt the basics - how to avoid mistakes and how to undo things, without having actually an undo-button, it's more and more fun to built, because your areas get better every time.
For my middle-age city-project it took me 6 hours and 5 testing areas until I found a way and a look that suits me. But then within 4 hours I had a very pretty 16x20 city. Another 4 hours or more will be need to polishing etc.
The more you work with the terrain the more time you need and the more pain it can be to get a good design.
More Wizards would be helpful - some is already done via plugins from the vault.
Main problems for me that remain:
1. Making custom NPCs and items is a pain. An easy wizard is needed. Best would be something offical from OEI and not a user-plugin.
2. It's not easy to create an area with a working walkmesh, especially when you try to put many placeables in your city/village/dungeon. You are forced to bake the module very often, in order to see whether the placeables you used lead to a unwalkable tiles. Especially in big areas it's tiresome, to move things around until the walkmesh is fine.
3. Same goes for testing: You always have to bake the whole mod, when you want to test something. That leads on the positive side to the effect, that you built more accurate, because you know testing takes time. But on the opposite it makes fine-tuning in the end very time-consuming. Not to mention that you can' t let players hop on and off to test, because they need the newest pwc.
More to come ...
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| « Last Edit: on: Mar 28, 2007, 8:03AM » |
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Lazybones
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I had the exact same problems with the toolset that Drengist noted, and agree that solving those issues would greatly help give prospective builders access to a potentially powerful tool.
The time is an issue; I could build a decent-looking 16x20 city area in NWN1 with placeables and ambient sounds in an hour, as opposed to the eight he cited for NWN2. But the potential is there to have the city look much better in NWN2 with the heightmaps and adjustable placeables. I think that the availability of a lot of downloadable areas that have been heavily edited will be a necessary step for folks who want to run regular campaigns, since there is no way that someone will be able to build on an ongoing basis for a weekly game.
I think that plug-ins largely address the issue that FW raised about ease of use. The community really stepped up, and there were dozens of decent ones out within a month of release. But we need a stable toolset so that these plug-ins can be of best use; in just two months that I was building there were two patches that broke every plug-in I was using each time. I would still like to see a better item editor and I like the idea of file management that Starbuck mentioned. I am still trying to get a grip on the smaller capacity of modules (in terms of overall number of areas) and the best way to organize a campaign, so discussion of this would be useful as well (although perhaps best suited to the Builders Forum).
I also have a question about custom content that maybe Forrestwolf can clarify. It was my understanding that NWN2 uses a proprietary program for creature animation that is not available to the public (or is available but hugely expensive? not clear on that), and therefore there is a very high barrier to any new creature models being introduced by the community. The NWN2 toolset gives you a lot more power to edit creatures via tinting and scaling, but it would be a boon in the long run if new creatures could be created by the custom content community.
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Forrestwolf
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on Mar 28, 2007, 2:24 PM, Lazybones wrote:
The time is an issue; I could build a decent-looking 16x20 city area in NWN1 with placeables and ambient sounds in an hour, as opposed to the eight he cited for NWN2....
I think that plug-ins largely address the issue that FW raised about ease of use. ...
I also have a question about custom content that maybe Forrestwolf can clarify. It was my understanding that NWN2 uses a proprietary program for creature animation that is not available to the public (or is available but hugely expensive? not clear on that), and therefore there is a very high barrier to any new creature models being introduced by the community. The NWN2 toolset gives you a lot more power to edit creatures via tinting and scaling, but it would be a boon in the long run if new creatures could be created by the custom content community. |
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Let me hit those three points of LB's quickly here - time is the #1 issue for me. Drengist is very much right that practicing will help - and I'm VERY glad to hear you've got it down to several hours, Drengist. That's very promising. Wizards are indeed a big missing part - the plugin for creature creation sounds like a pretty good stopper to fill that gap, but in general, I think I've noticed the initial rush of plugins on the Vault slow to a trickle - is that right?
My style of NWN these days - and one that Obs needs to be aware of - is what you might call the Fleet Street style. I make up set pieces - sound stages some call them - where I can run things on-the-fly. A lot of people here use that technique, too. I think one description of NWN2 is that it's not for 'everyman' in terms of being easy to build things - it's for master builders, as it were.
Unfortunately, the sound-stage style of play is sort of like being a set designer at a major studio - the design can be GREAT, and the vision really wonderful, but the production value - the amount of time we have to build stuff - is small. It's all cobbled together by stage hands before every episode - not an enduring masterpiece written for a major motion picture.
Can we DO that with NWN2? I'd given up hope before, but now I'm starting (thanks to Drengist) to think it might be possible someday.
So improvements - more wizards, SOME WAY to make exterior landscapes easier (or maybe DM's just use interior tilesets!). Those are huge. I don't need lots of lush placeables - but I need a walkmesh that works without fuss, and buildings I can toss down fairly quickly.
Finally, custom content - LB, you're right - it uses Granny, some sort of very expensive animation program. HOWEVER, I don't care about animations, really. I don't mind using existing ones - that's what the vast majority of NWN1 custom creatures do. I'm just hearing from the other custom content people that modelling is having a very hard time - another big thing is textures, which are much more complex now. Perhaps when DLA releases NWMax2 we'll be all right - thought they're using 3DSMax, NOT GMax, which means even to use NWMax, you'll need to BUY 3DS max. Not good. We need GMax or another free program support.
And the other issue is 2da's - my understanding is that even custom music has issues...is that right? It's gotta be somewhere close to NWN1 level of usability, I think.
Whew. Long answer again
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Drengist
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My style of NWN these days - and one that Obs needs to be aware of - is what you might call the Fleet Street style. I make up set pieces - sound stages some call them - where I can run things on-the-fly. A lot of people here use that technique, too. I think one description of NWN2 is that it's not for 'everyman' in terms of being easy to build things - it's for master builders, as it were.
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Yes, if you built everything on your own, what I tend to do. But if (and the if is big) you find enough areas on the vault it might be different.
But one thing remains: It's hard for someone like me with limited spare time to built within sessions. My city Rowanon (with 2-3 villages outside belonging to the capital-district) will be used for chapter 2 and 3 of my campaign.
I won't be able to built a completely different plotline within a week, because my players chose something I had not in mind at all. But it leaves enough flexibility when you have a small amount of areas left. They can be used to adapt to the players on goings.
Just a house or two and maybe a cave. The interiors are done very fast. However that means more building time beforehand.
Sorry for any typos, I am in a hurry.
D.
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| « Last Edit: on: Mar 28, 2007, 3:11PM » |
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Ascadia
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May I just add something here to keep things in perspective:
irc.neverwinterconnections.com is currently the host for the Neverwinter Nights 2 Community Representatives IRC channel (NWN2CR) which has already allowed the Community Reps and Obsidian Entertainment a great deal of access to the NWN/2 Community including 2 Developer Chats and a place for Rob McGinnis and other OEI Devs to perch daily and chat live with members of the Community.
If nothing else that is an example of how influential and fundamental NWConnections is to bringing the NWN/2 Community together, and how much you have already contributed to the Communication process between OEI and the NWN2 Community.
Which seemed to be forgotten in all the mud slinging.
~ Mortis Nai
NWN2 Community Rep, General Forums.
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| « Last Edit: on: Mar 28, 2007, 5:14PM » |
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