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Topic: NWN2: The Future (Read 986 times) |
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The twin brother
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on Mar 31, 2007, 12:38 AM, Ghool wrote:I think the pwc DL was a bad design decision, and clearly shows (to me at least) that the MP/DM'd aspect of NWN2 was not a part of the original design.
Hence, why the premium module program was aimed a single players only, and which was the main reason why I turned down the premium module project I was offered. No considerations were even given (nor neccessary) for anything beyond a single player experience.
Now, we all know that Atari gave the go-ahead for the premium mod 'experiment' (which failed incidentally, as the premium program didn't generate enough income to justify it as a working business model, and it is very likely we will never see anything similar to that business model again), and due to the larger user base of single players, this is why it was pushed toward the SP RPG crowd.
In steps NWN2, and guess what market it was targeted for? Hence, why we have odd (coming from a MP perspective) design decisions, and the lack of a DM client in the beginning.
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to think on it, some people (like me) should have see this coming this way but they didn't (I didn't).
Obsidian check
former games KOTOR1, KOTOR2 check
KOTOR1 no multiplayer check
KOTOR2 no multiplayer check
KOTOR1 larg singelpayer check
KOTOR2 large singelplayer check
NWN2 see former games.
it tend out to be that Obsidian thought again more towards SP than what the NWN comunnity was connected more which was the MP and DM'd things.
did they considered this? possibly yes but if you look at the formers games then you can guess they put lots of MP issues in the side and focused really hard at the SP.
about building....see what happened with former games. no modules at all. I think this is because lack of tools too. but when I had KOTOR2 and finished the game it a bit annoyed me this is it so I just threw it away without to look at the toolset (which I think was like the NWN's but without some tools)
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Gulfwulf
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Obsidian didn't work on KoToR1, Bioware did. And the reason both games were single player was because of the design decision made by Lucas Arts. As for either not having mods, there have been many mods released by their respective communities for both games. The difference between those games and NWN, is that most of the mods were "small" things like additional quests, NPCs, weapons, etc. Mod authors couldn't create whole new worlds like they could with NWN. Saying that, I had a feeling NWN2 wouldn't be complete when shipped because of the lack of an integrated dm client on shipping and that KoToR2 wasn't finished when it was shipped. Then again, neither was NWN. The problem with NWN2 is that it's like trying to fit a sqaure peg into a round hole. Even after cutting off the corners, it's not going to be a perfect fit. It was designed from the ground up as a sp game and I don't believe that it will ever fit into mp as well as NWN did. I could be wrong and I hope I am, but I doubt it.
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The twin brother
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well...
NWN was not ready when it was released...but NWN2 WAS NOT ready when it was released...
most of what happened with NWN is that after they fixed the problems they added things.
in NWN2 even after they will fix problems they will add things that should have been from the start...so for NWN2 the future is not glowing...
one thing for sure...the PW files are not to my liking at all and until I will see reson to download them then I will maybe do it. I really don't understand the purpose of these files except they will allow to play in a PW or create PW...
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Lazybones
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Guys, let's try to keep focused on the topic of the thread, which is how to best move forward with improving NWN2's multiplayer component.
Discussing the failings of NWN2 is fine as long as you have ideas for how to get past them. But let's try to avoid the "spilt milk" conversations that have already been had. We have what we have, and if people want to work with NWN2, we need to move forward.
For me, the PWC issue means that I will have to do more prep work before I start my usual beta with my Sunday group. It means that they won't have material to play for a longer time, but it also means that the project may be more polished by the time that they see it.
For NWC in general, I think that hosts of NWN2 MP games, when they get going, will have to be clear with players (possibly in the game description), that large downloads will be required, maybe even weekly if they plan on updating. I'm just glad that NWVault is willing to host them.
Any folks have more specific knowledge on how big the PWC files are likely to be? I have one for a mod that I hadn't quite finished, with 5 exterior areas (ranging 8x8 to 12x12), and it came in at 63mb. For me, that's about a 60 second download.
Another issue for me is the smaller module size. My experience with the OC is that it was broken into small modules of 10-20 areas, with connections in between. Due to the lengthy load time for modules, this will strongly affect my design decisions; for example I will not want to have players frequently passing through areas that require module loads. A number of my modules are non-linear so I'm going to have to think about how to handle this. Anyone else have this issue yet? (It may have come up more for the PW folks, as our modules are often built on a smaller scale).
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Arawen
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At present, we have in NWN2 a game whose fundamental design did not reflect any serious committment to multiplayer gaming. Feargus Urquart acknowledged in an interview that the DM Client had been cut entirely early in the development process. It was only restored when community protest persuaded Obsidian to add it in post-release patches. What we have reflects the consequences of Obsidian's design decisions.
The success of NWN2 as a DMed multiplayer game will depend on the merits of the NWN2's quality as a software product. If the product is good enough to be enjoyable and hassle free to use, the community will follow.
Compared with NWN1 at this stage, the modding scene and DMed multiplayer community for NWN2 is extremely small. At this point in NWN1's modding scene, the Neverwinter Connections calendar literally overflowed with DMed games seeking players and Neverwinter Vault had over 100 community-made modules ranked 8.0 or higher.
Obsidian has promised on the official forums that NWN2 multiplayer stability will probably be addressed in patch 1.06, but the DM Client is still less functional than NWN1.
The other major barrier to DMed gaming is the NWN2 toolset. Every time I patch NWN2, I fire up the toolset and it is still not practical because of quality control issues. I feel that the NWN2 toolset also still lacks in many areas of user friendliness, stability, and omissions of basic functionality. As a result, NWN2 is uninstalled and sits on the shelf.
From my standpoint, the DM Client section of the NWN2 forums essentially asks community members to beta test and QA an unfinished product. At this stage in NWN1's development, the DM Client forum discussion focused mainly on how to use the client, not how to develop it.
Perhaps six months from now, the game will be patched enough that our forum conversations will be about what incredibly creative things we can do with the NWN2 DM Client. For example, Demetrious' work with DMFI tools to make them UI-based suggests NWN2's promise.
Please bear in mind the high performance demands of NWN2 will by their very nature reduce the number of DMs. My computer met the minimum recommended specs for NWN2. In testing, I found my hardware insufficent for smooth DMed multiplayer gaming.
For me, right now, NWN1 is the future of live, DMed pen and paper style improv video gaming in user-made mods.
Arawen
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| « Last Edit: on: Mar 31, 2007, 3:24PM » |
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Arawen
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I've read on the forums that .pwc files can be compresed with WinRar into much smaller files.
This is an issue because many home broadband providers have very limited upload bandwidth. One would not want to upload .pwc files very often.
Further, the .pwc files have only area and walkmesh information. According to the forums, one could change anything else between games and apparently the game should not break.
For DMs who run on the fly, non-linear soundstage games, the limited number of areas per module, and generally confined size of the areas themselves channels design into a more limited geography.
It is difficult to add areas each week, so non-linearity may have to be situational. The overall game structure would be linear because of the immense prep time and downloads, and small module sizes, but within that one can present players with very contained scenarios that can be resolved in several ways.
Carlo's Desperate Measures prison escape module for NWN1 provides an example of this kind of structure -- a very controlled, confined environment, that allows players a wide latitude of decisions and consequences within that restricted situation.
Arawen
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Ghool
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Well, the .pwc issue seems quite small, as long as one isn't changing the walkmesh in their modules. What I wonder is; if you build a few areas, host a session, and then add more areas to the same module, are your players then required to DL a new .pwc file for the entire module? Even if they aren't scheduled to explore the new areas for a few more sessions?
Or, is it possible to have .pwc files on an area-by-area basis?
If this is the case (only a .pwc for the entire module), then 'building-as-you-go' for weekly campaigns is simply out of the question. If it is on an area-by-area basis, then there is a possible work-around.
Has anyone made an attempt at this yet?
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| « Last Edit: on: Mar 31, 2007, 4:18PM » |
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Venture
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Regarding the .pwc files, maybe somebody with more computer know-how could take a look at this program and see if it addresses some of our concerns:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Tools.Detail&id=5#Files
It discusses using "checksums" to compare the needed files with what the player has on his computer, and then downloading only the needed files. I'm not sure if this means it just checks to get new .pwc files, or if it actually helps you download only the changed portion of .pwc files.
Aside from that, one way to go to a "build as you go" approach would be to link to an entirely new module, right? In other words, for example, you could have a core town, and if you wanted to build around the town, build it as another module that you'd link to the first module with a script. Not as elegant and quick, and you'd want to build in bigger chunks, but perhaps better than modifying or adding onto the first module and thus requiring a re-download of the .pwc file.
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Lazybones
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on Mar 31, 2007, 4:16 PM, Ghool wrote:| Well, the .pwc issue seems quite small, as long as one isn't changing the walkmesh in their modules. What I wonder is; if you build a few areas, host a session, and then add more areas to the same module, are your players then required to DL a new .pwc file for the entire module? Even if they aren't scheduled to explore the new areas for a few more sessions? |
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It is my understanding that any changes to the PWC require players to download a new one, regardless of which areas are entered in play. In other words, it would be like a hak incompatability on login. I'd be happy to see a correction if anyone knows otherwise.
When looking for info about when you need to update the PWC, I found this thread at the Bioboards: http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=540891&forum=118&highlight=PWC. Not 100% conclusive but it seems to suggest that ANY walkmesh change would require a new file.
Also, I just tested RARing a PWC file, and it took it from 63.5mb to 9.03mb, a very decent compression.
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Lazybones
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on Mar 31, 2007, 6:33 PM, Venture wrote:| Aside from that, one way to go to a "build as you go" approach would be to link to an entirely new module, right? In other words, for example, you could have a core town, and if you wanted to build around the town, build it as another module that you'd link to the first module with a script. Not as elegant and quick, and you'd want to build in bigger chunks, but perhaps better than modifying or adding onto the first module and thus requiring a re-download of the .pwc file. |
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This was what I was thinking of as well. I currently build my campaigns around "episodes" of 1-3 sessions each; at the moment in NWN1 they are all in the same module, but I could (almost would have to) link them by separate modules in NWN2. As I noted above, I'm going to have to come up with some new design strategies when I return to building in NWN2.
At the moment I'm eyeballing 1.06 as my "return" patch, as it looks like they are going to focus on some MP issues then. Plus I would like a fairly stable toolset before I start building again, as Arawen noted above.
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Lazybones
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I just tested a small sample mod in the NWN2 toolset (1 interior + exterior area). I baked the mod and exported the PWC. Then I added a few placeables to the exterior area (that affected the walkmesh), and made no further changes.
When I exported the PWC again, it was a different file with a larger size. This would suggest that even a minor change that modifies the walkmesh will require a new PWC download.
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The twin brother
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large module VS small modules
I choose none of those.
the best way to my opinion is to update the module each week for a session.
delete the areas they past and you don't need anymore. if you'll need those later then export them and session or two before the players need to go back to the area import them back to the module.
large module: big load of the module. might take some minutes. and big PWC files.
small modules with connections like in OC: PWC file for each module and when you go to another module you need to wait a bit.
small module which you update every week: not large PWC files. under the limit areas so the module load will not take so much time. looks like the best option to me.
in the end I think each one of the DMs/builders here (like me) really wants to DM in NWN2 because if the areas will look good and you can think on how "beautiful" the areas are then you can like it very much. it looks more realistic and you can have lots of ideas in what you want to do.
from a player's opinion then you can see better views. I watched again the trilogy of LOTR and I thought to myself. it will be darn good to have a campaign in NWN2 when you can really travel in places like this.
I have a vacation now so I decide to give the NWN2 toolset a second chance (although this will be the fifth chance. and try to build some ext areas and possibly after that an int areas. just for the fun or expirience)
hope it is still in topic.
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Sol Arbriel
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I really am sorry to read about the problems a lot of players are having with NWN2.
I am not coming from a position of any authority at all just like many of you I too had high hopes, and still do, for NWN2.
The big problem for me is that I do not have a Windows PC, I am entirely Macintosh OS X based. Yes it did come as a bitter blow that NWN2 is to be a Windows only app because of the decision or pay off to go DirectX from Microsoft and totally ignore the OpenGL community.
There are workarounds to getting NWN2 to run on an Intel based Macintosh, but as yet it is too early to know if NWN2 works properly.
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Dane Bramage
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I have read that it can be done by running Windows on your Mac thru BootCamp. If you got enough beef in your rig, then it will run fine.
Good luck.
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Olias Stormcrow
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There was a post on the NWN2 forums that it would have to be a Mac with one of the Intel CPUs for bootcamp to run and you'll still need a copy of Windows XP of course.
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toxygenie
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Ok I see lots of links to the NWN2 forums and requests to post there. To post in the NWN2 forums you need to have bought the game so the people like myself that are waiting until NWN2 can be played and DMed in MP fashion can't have any input into what they would like to see... soo we wait, and hope.
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Lazybones
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on Apr 15, 2007, 7:23 AM, toxygenie wrote:| Ok I see lots of links to the NWN2 forums and requests to post there. To post in the NWN2 forums you need to have bought the game so the people like myself that are waiting until NWN2 can be played and DMed in MP fashion can't have any input into what they would like to see... soo we wait, and hope. |
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While it is true that you need a CD-key to post in most of the specialized forum, anyone can post in the NWN2 General Discussion forum with a simple site registration.
I think the forum for the expansion pack is also open.
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Hero Protagonist
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Sol,
I am running NWN2 on my MacBook Pro. I use bootcamp and dual-boot into Windows 2003 Server R2. The only problem I am having is when hosting a game with more than 4 players. Using the same machine to play and host is not possible, in my experience. I have to play on a different machine.
Hero
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Ghool
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*raises the dead*
So, any news on how Obsidian is supporting the community? I've been lurking for a while now, and it almost seems (to me at least), that NWN2 is dying a slow death around here.
Is Mr. McGinnis still lurking about, perhaps still taking an interest in this community?
What's the word on NWN2? Is everyone so disappointed and disgruntled, that we're crossing our fingers the expansion will improve MP/DM'd games?
To be completely honest, NWN has lost it's lustre for me, and I was hoping for another game to replace it, but as of right now, I won't touch NWN2 with a ten-foot pole. It's likely I won't get the expansion until I read some reviews and feedback before buying, as I would not like to make the same mistake as NWN2, and pre-order. 
I'd like to hear what others think about the future of the franchise? Is it going the way of the dinosaur? Or, are members of the MP/DM community holding out hope?
Personally, if there isn't a TON (and I mean a TON) of DM/MP improvements in the upcoming expansion, I'll just shelve the game and wait for Dragon Age, and hope to Gosh it isn't exclusively SP.
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| « Last Edit: on: Jul 7, 2007, 10:49PM » |
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