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Topic: NWN2: The Future (Read 986 times) |
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karvon
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Haven't seen much posted here aside from Venture's ongoing campaign - which seems to be doing ok.
The vault has quite a few comments posted each day and fair bit of stuff being submitted for NWN2. I've not really looked at any of that though since I'm not using NWN2 yet.
I'm a later adapter and continuing to wait and watch to see some signs of more MP DM'd campaigns developing before I'd consider doing so. I do hope NWN2 does turn out to be a reasonable alternative as I would like to play it in DM/MP form.
That all said, I'm still happy enough with NWN1 as a story telling medium and that's what I'll continue using as a DM, as I lack the time/patience to learn the NWN2 toolset at this point.
Karvon
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Mulu
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Well, Dragon Age is not going to have a DM client, that has long since been announced. So even if it's multiplayer, it can't replace NWN.
I think the lesson learned from NWN is that DM'ed gaming is such a small niche market that it's not worth the development time. If NWN2 never crosses the threshold of usability, there may never be another game truly like it. Better keep a legacy rig around!
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Lazybones
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I was actually thinking the other day about reopening this topic. I just finished building a new computer and have been dabbling back in Neverwinter Nights 2 over the last week or so.
So we're eight months in, and there are both pluses and minuses to NWN2's story. On the plus side, there have been a lot of improvements since release. The game is a lot more stable and functional. The bad news is that the multiplayer side still has a ways to go, at least until NWC-style campaigns with a DM and a group of 4-7 players are reasonably feasible. I know that some folks like Venture have done a great job test-running NWN2 MP games as DMs, proving that it can be done. But in my opinion, the game just isn't ready for us yet.
DM Client
The DMC, so essential to NWC games, is still a work in progress. One of the first things I did with my new rig was boot up the DMC and see how things were coming in 1.06 (I think I last used it around 1.02). Being able to move around NPCs is a huge and necessary step forward, although it is still somewhat awkward to control single NPCs (you have to draw a drop box every time you want to grab someone, and there's no easy way to select part of a group). The inability to access creature inventories sans possession makes editing creatures on the fly difficult (I realize we didn't have that feature at the start in NWN1, but now that I've been using it for years, I cannot imagine running a game without it). Furthermore, console commands aren't usable in the Client (on the table for 1.07, although quickbar commands are not), and from what I understand (having tested the client only in SP mode to date), there are serious problems with using creature abilities and spells on players while possessing. I understand that the Client is due for attention in 1.07, and I hope to see a really solid DM mode soon. Khaveen has been keeping attention on the DMC issues on the Bioboards, and has been tracking projected fixes. Head over there if you want to give input; Rob McGinnis posts there frequently.
The Toolset
Loaded up my old module back from last December. Everything worked great and the toolset is MUCH more friendly with a widescreen monitor and a fast computer. I had heard that some people have still had crash bugs and problems with dual-core machines but I did not experience any difficulties in about 6 hours of work. I noticed that there don't seem to be a lot of new plug-ins since last December; at least most of the ones I had been using are still being updated (thanks to Tani for his RePlug effort to keep a number of old plug-ins current).
The problem with the toolset, and with NWN2 in general (in my opinion) is the same now as it was before: the time it takes to build. NWN2 has the potential for creating gorgeous areas, and the toolset has more power than Aurora did in NWN1. But that is a double-edged sword, as NWN1 would do a lot of the work for you in terms of creating a basic area. For example, I could create a decent-looking 12x12 outdoor rural area in maybe 15 minutes in NWN1, including placed sounds, area settings and effects, and a few random respawning encounters. Of course, that rural area tended to look a lot like every other rural area. That same area now takes about 3 hours to build in NWN2, even with plug-ins handling a lot of the work. Rob McGinnis said on the Bioboards that, "Well, if you want to make a module in the NWN2 toolset that is the equivalent of a module in the NWN1 toolset, I believe it would take you the same amount of time as it would in the NWN1 toolset. It's when you start adding in the new functionality such as terrain deformation, scaling of objects and custom effects that you start to see a real increase in time." The problem with that is that while you can create a dupe of a flat NWN1 area in 2 seconds, to copy a small area with elevation changes, water transitions, roads, and buildings that takes minutes in NWN1 takes hours to do even in a basic way in NWN2. Just building a waterfall is an insanely complicated exercise, while in NWN1 it took literally ten seconds to set the tile and place the sound effect. I'm not trying to be critical of NWN2 here; those hours pay off in a big way in-game. But there's no way to do a "cheap" area in NWN2 without it looking terrible. At least to my eyes.
Interior areas are in some cases even more work. In NWN1 the tiles would include basic features such as tables and benches in the inn set (which in some cases you would have to work around, such as adding in sittable chairs around a table). In NWN2, just building a small tavern interior has taken me over 4 hours and that is by cheating and copying placeable sets from a prefab on the Vault. Some of it is the learning curve, but I anticipate that building in NWN2 will always take 5-10x the time for outdoor areas, and 3-6x the time for indoor areas, no matter how proficient I get with the new tools. There's no way I can build ahead of a weekly game with the time commitment needed. Heck, even a short campaign installment, good for 3-5 sessions, will likely take about a hundred hours to construct.
And it still bugs me that placed light sources shine through interior walls. 
So I think my approach to NWN2, and that of many NWCers that choose to return to NWN2, will be more dependent on the community this time around. I'm already working on a campaign idea that will allow me to grab prefab areas and cobble them together into a series of adventures. There are already some beautiful prefabs up on the Vault, and I encourage anyone working on a project to be generous with sharing their areas, grouped placeables, and visual effects with others. I will probably put my first mod up for people to hack bits out of as desired.
Interestingly enough, I suspect that many of us will eventually see a phenomenon similar to what folks decried in NWN1, before the huge deluge of custom content that we saw in the CEP and CTP: many mods looking the same as the others. PWs, for example, will have to rely heavily on posted prefabs in many cases if they are going to be up in a reasonable time span. And even after 8 months there really aren't that many high-quality (defined in this case as polished, finished work that looks nice and won't kill an average server) prefabs up yet. I hope that this will improve with time.
So, that's where I am with NWN2. From a multiplayer perspective, NWN2 is still a title with more potential than delivered content, but just looking through what's already up at the Vault I'm hopeful that NWN2's second year will see it come into that potential as a multiplayer game. Heck, maybe we'll even see a few more campaigns here at NWC. If 1.07 delivers all it has promised, I may even be running one of them.
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Lazybones
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Just an amendment to my dissertation up there  ... I think that for multiplayer, the release of Mask of the Betrayer will be an important turning point for NWN2, at least in terms of its future at NWC. Expansion packs always give a shot in the arm to an existing game, and if the site has enough of a NWN2 presence by then to pick up some of those players, then we have a much better chance of moving forward with that game.
If, however, NWN2 still isn't ready for "primetime," in terms of DMed/small group multiplayer games, then I think that a big chance to grow NWC may be missed.
Note that this presumes that NWN2 is being played at NWC before the expansion is released, so I think patch 1.07 might be decisive in this regard.
The expansion pack is listed for a September 18 release on Amazon (yeah, right ), so I hope that Obsidian's NWN2 team is planning on spending the summer chained to their computers.
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Venture
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I only have time to chime in with a short message now, but saw this post and wanted to make a few comments. For one, I think Lazybones hit the nail on the head with prefabs. I think that 3 out of every 4 or 5 areas that I've used have been prefabs (although some I have modified heavily). The good news is, perhaps due to the bigger size of areas, is that my players are going at a bit of a slower pace (or maybe that is out of sympathy for me). I thought that we'd blow through what I had for a first module in 3 or 4 sessions, but we will be on session 6 next time, and we're still in the first module.
Also, building does get dramatically faster as you go. I can build an outdoor area much quicker than I could two months ago, although still at nowhere near the speed at which I built in NWN. Also, much of the building for the first module was to get it set up with base scripts, etc. (resting widget, HCR, etc.). Now that I have a base module done, the next module has been much easier to build (even fun).
There are still the glitches with the DM client that have already been discussed here at NWC. A problem I recently discovered is with changing factions. I need to check to see if it was a setting in my module or area, but I had a "boss" villain set to a custom faction, so he could interact with the characters. When the time came to fight, they could not right click to attack him, and I could not change his faction. Again, that may have been on my end. I hope so. The DMFI area faction option didn't work, either.
I have high hopes for patch 1.07. I'm just glad that Obsidian is still working on it. I remember that many of us were worried that after the game was released, support was stopped.
The bottom line is that we are having fun. Our last session was when I felt that our group really started to gel, and it was the most fun I've had DMing for quite a long time. I do look forward to our games each week now.
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Lazybones
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Venture, you should consider submitting your base module to DMFI and/or the Vault. Could save a lot of builders some time. I know that the NWN1 base mods that were posted here a while back got a lot of use in the community.
I haven't installed DMFI or a bleeding/rest system in my mod yet, so any suggestions you have would be welcome. We could take it to the Builder's Forum if it gets too in-depth and takes this thread off topic.
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Venture
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Good idea, I will do that this week. It isn't a work of art by any stretch, but maybe somebody can take it and improve it.
It has a start area (meeting area, lockable room with base merchants, lockable room with magic item merchants, lockable crafting room), DMFI, HCR bleeding and death system, and Mogney's rest widget (ported over from NWN).
I never did get HABD working correctly, and it doesn't have all the fancy levers and scripts in the old DMFI start area from NWN.
Oh, and it has some NPCs that I use in my campaign, too.
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| « Last Edit: on: Jul 9, 2007, 11:35AM » |
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Mulu
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I've been thinking about this alot lately, and it seems to me the only way you could pull off a long term weekly campaign in NWN2 without an endless supply of prefabs (and still keep your job and marriage) would basically be to have a complex story that takes place in one region.
So say you make a small village and some surrounds, and then over time the plot advances without requiring ever leaving that core region. The PC's would be firmly rooted in that one village, primarily as defenders rather than explorers, as it's exploration that requires building. Instead of PC's heading out in search of adventure, it would come to them, and not just as waves of monsters but caravans, expeditions, royal visits, etc., including information of events elsewhere that impact that region. Instead of roguish adventurers, the PC's could effectively *be* the guard, or some other organization with a base of operations that stays close to home. An insular location like Daggerdale would be ideal.
Oh, here's an example of the latest in placeable effects:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2VisualEffects.Detail&id=9
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| « Last Edit: on: Jul 10, 2007, 3:47AM » |
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Mulu
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BTW, that model for a campaign is basically the model of an rp PW, so I know it works. Not as interesting as a standard exploration based campaign, but it's doable. And you can have houses that you actually live in and such, and very well defined NPC's.
A campaign would likely center around an organization like a church, University, thieves guild, secret society, Royal Guard, etc., and would be more intrigue based than adventure based.
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Venture
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on Jul 9, 2007, 3:00 AM, Lazybones wrote:Venture, you should consider submitting your base module to DMFI and/or the Vault. Could save a lot of builders some time. I know that the NWN1 base mods that were posted here a while back got a lot of use in the community.
I haven't installed DMFI or a bleeding/rest system in my mod yet, so any suggestions you have would be welcome. We could take it to the Builder's Forum if it gets too in-depth and takes this thread off topic. |
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I've uploaded my base module here:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=170
HCR is nice, but I'd love it if somebody could figure out how to get HABD working.
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The twin brother
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on Jul 10, 2007, 7:23 PM, Mulu wrote:BTW, that model for a campaign is basically the model of an rp PW, so I know it works. Not as interesting as a standard exploration based campaign, but it's doable. And you can have houses that you actually live in and such, and very well defined NPC's.
A campaign would likely center around an organization like a church, University, thieves guild, secret society, Royal Guard, etc., and would be more intrigue based than adventure based. |
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I agree here. I had in mind for few mounths now to make a campaign in NWN2. but first I really want that the DMC will get better. about the module, I thought more on making big areas and make it more traveling than put encounters in it to fight. but this would be a short term campaign. mulu's idea is good, but I don't think I will do that (I had nightmeres from the chapter 1 of the OC in NWN 1 until I finished it with a very odd character...). yeah making campaign with one point and some areas around it may sound easy, but it take time to figure what would be done there. I mentioned that most of the OC of NWN1 was this actualy. you never got so far from neverwinter, you never got so far from port last, in chapter 3 actualy it was some kind of traveling but very little. chapter 4 was too short to notice what exactly you are doing...
if someone make group of players from NWN2 who played the NWN1 OC, and the players like the campaign more than the OC, you can shine 
also because there are so many people now who come to NWC for NWN2 I think maybe a certein campaign should be run few times in different time of the week for the players of only NWN2 who can't in the first time. it won't have new concept, just the same thing. for DMs it will be BORING but for the sake of the players I'm up for this kind of idea (how so unselfish of me ), now I just need to start and make a module...
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| « Last Edit: on: Jul 16, 2007, 1:00PM » |
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